Heidi Campo: Welcome back to Space Nuts. I'm your host for
this episode, Heidi Campo. And joining us today is
Professor Fred Watson.
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Heidi Campo: Fred, how are you doing today?
Professor Fred Watson: Very well, thank you. It's a bit soggy in Sydney. Uh, I
understand it's been a bit soggy in Houston as well
with rainy weather.
Heidi Campo: It has. We've been getting rain like crazy.
But I'll tell you what, this time of year here in Space
City is so beautiful because we have these
trees. I can't remember what they're called, but they guess they get
the most beautiful flowers on them. So we have all these
floral, fragrant trees everywhere. So it's amazing.
If you guys could come visit Space center,
come check out Johnson Space center, do the tours and see our
beautiful. This is a great time of year to visit.
Professor Fred Watson: I think it was this time of year when we actually
did that as well now, a little bit earlier.
Um, so it was last year,
uh, but it was a little bit earlier. I think it was about April.
So we probably didn't see the best of the trees. But we certainly saw
the Space Center. And your museum Houston's
got the most fabulous science museum. Absolutely
brilliant.
Heidi Campo: We do pretty good. I'm sure you, uh, probably met some of our local
mosquitoes around that time of year as well.
Professor Fred Watson: Maybe.
Heidi Campo: Yes, with, uh, it being in a swamp,
the bayou, we certainly get a lot of mosquitoes. But,
uh, with our story today, there's no
mosquitoes out there in space, which is, I think,
one of the attractive, uh, properties.
We have some incredible stories today talking about some
of the new images coming in from a
revolutionary telescope. We're going to be talking
a little bit about what's going on on the International
Space Station. And then the
last story is the one that I hope you guys stick around for
because this is something I'm a little bit excited to talk to
Fred about. It's these mysterious,
um, ridges on Mars. And I'm so
excited to hear about this, Fred.
So let's, let's just kind of jump in with this
telescope. I, I'm looking at
these images and it's. I say this
with almost everything. So you guys probably think I'm just lying at this point.
But it's so beautiful. I just am. So
I'm never, um, not in awe of the
images I see from these telescopes.
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Um, and I guess, um,
what revolutionized the images that we
see from modern day telescopes was the
fact that we've got color in them, which certainly when I was a
young astronomer back in the 1850s or whenever it
was, um, there wasn't, everything was black and white, there
was no color because the color emulsions weren't sensitive
enough. And then my colleague David Merlin came along at the
Anglo Australian telescope, figured out how to do three color
imagery and put it all together to give us true color images.
And that's now done electronically with um,
charge coupled devices, uh,
and the wonderful software
that people have access to to turn these images
into these beautiful, beautiful, uh,
artistically graceful images that
we see. Uh, and that's my segue I
guess into the story. Because
the camera is one of the key components.
This is a brand new telescope. And the images that you're talk, talking
about, Heidi, which include nebulae and
galaxies and all the usual stuff that we're used to seeing, but
this time in such detail and with
such, uh, imposing
colors is perhaps the wrong way to say it. But um,
you know, you really feel as though you're actually in the action there
with the, with the um, the nebulae and the
galaxies. Uh, the, the secret of that is first of
all the telescope itself is an 8.4
meter diameter telescope. That's the
biggest scale of telescopes that we have access to at the moment,
the 8 meter telescopes. It's on a mountaintop
called Cerro Pashon in uh, northern Chile.
I've, uh, not actually visited the mountain, but I've seen
it uh, from the other side of the valley. Uh,
there uh, are several telescopes up there. But um,
what makes it special is two things. The wide angle
of view that the telescope can see. So
instead of just homing in on a tiny fine little bit
of detail, uh, in the sky, it
does that, but it does it with a very wide angle of view.
So you see detail everywhere. And that
is partly because the design of the telescope, but also
and the segue I was getting to. It's taken me a while. Uh,
the camera, which is a
3.2, 3200
megapixel or 3.2 gigapixel camera,
I think it's the biggest camera of its kind in
the world. It's the size of a small car. Uh, and
it sits at the focus of this telescope, recording
these breathtaking wide angle images.
Um, the instrument we're talking about,
uh, we used to, it's been, this has been in construction for
best part of 30 years. We've been talking about this telescope
in the world of astronomy. And at first it was called
the lsst, which was the Large
Synoptic Survey Telescope. Uh,
it's now called, I think I'm right in saying it's the
Charles Simony Telescope because I think Charles
Simony, a very well known name in space,
um, philanthropy, I think I can put it that way. I think he was
the first paying customer on the International
Space Station back in the early
2000s. So a wealthy person,
but somebody who can put that wealth to good use
in a scientific sense. But the observatory
itself, where this telescope is, uh, is
named after one of my favorite characters
in the whole of astronomy, Vera C.
Rubin, uh, whose name might be
familiar to you. She is, uh, she was a
compatriot of yours. I can't remember where she grew up
actually. Should, should have checked that, shouldn't I?
Vera We. She was one of the, the
pioneering, uh, uh, astronomers of her
time. She died in 2016,
Christmas Day, if I remember rightly. She passed away. She was a
good age, wonderful, wonderful person.
Um, very great champion for women in science,
uh, and uh, somebody who
put her stamp not just on the science itself, but
on the capabilities for astronomers.
She basically was the person who put dark
matter not so much on the map, uh,
but raised awareness that this was a real
issue, uh, that there was something out there that
weighed, um, much more than the normal matter
that we can see. Uh, that was,
um, basically, uh, something we
needed to explain. Dark matter. She wrote a
series of really influential papers in the late
1970s. That's amazing. Yeah,
so she was an extraordinary woman. So it's fabulous that this telescope
carries, or the observatory carries her name. So the Vera
C. Rubin Observatory.
Heidi Campo: So Fred, I've kind of got a little bit of a
detour question for you. So get your thinking cap
on. You know, when we talk about these,
these telescopes, you said a couple things that stood out to me.
You know, one about, ah, this woman who
sounded like just an incredible human being
who really left her mark on the world. But the one thing that really stuck
out to me is you said this telescope took 30 years to build.
And so I know a lot of our listeners are
people who are still maybe in school or
considering a field in these sciences or
they're early career professionals. Can you
talk a little bit about what it's like to put,
to dedicate yourself to a project that's going to take
30 years? It's your life's work. How do you
choose to, at maybe
25 years old to say, I'm going to.
This is Something I'm passionate about. And I'm going to work on this for 30
years. Like, how do people do that?
Professor Fred Watson: Well, they do. It's a really good question. Um,
so with the, with the telescope,
um, it was the brainchild of a few people.
Um, and I haven't really got to the
main issue that this telescope will do. I'll
keep talking about your, your question.
Uh, but the main point about this telescope is that it
can survey the entire southern
sky every three nights.
So it's got the capability to record
the whole sky in detail every three nights.
So what it's really looking for are
things that change, and that includes
things changing their position, which is asteroids. In
the first 10 hours of observing, it discovered
2,100 asteroids, which is, you know,
it's going to really start changing our view
of the Earth's, uh, locality in space.
Uh, and also things that go bump in the night, you know,
the supernova explosions, things of that sort. This will
be the telescope for picking that up. So,
yes, 30 years ago, people were
thinking, what we need is, uh,
something that can tell us about
an aspect of the universe. Excuse me. That had
never really been thought about before. And that is the way things
come and go. Because we, you know,
in traditional astronomy, uh, okay,
things change in the solar system. The planets are going around on short
timescales. But, uh, it's only
recently been realized that there are
things happening everywhere that happen on
short timescales. You know, like black hole mergers,
like neutron star collisions, like supernova
explosions. Stars that have got to the ends of their lives and
basically blown themselves to pieces. So
that was the vision for. That was seen by a
few scientists yet 30 years ago, um,
and they began working towards
raising the funding, raising the technology.
The technology just didn't exist back then to build a
telescope of this kind, uh, and eventually to get
it made. So some of those, um, people
right at the outset were quite senior people with the vision
to see what might, you know, what might occur. And they are,
probably, some of them are no longer with us, but they would have
had students and postdoctoral
fellows working with them. And they're the people,
uh, in exactly the way that you've just described.
They have seen what the potential
is for a project like this, and they've
put their noses to the grindstone, uh, and
stuck in there to, um, eventually
see, ah, the moment that we're seeing now,
the start of this telescope, the first light in images that
we're seeing. So for those people, you know, this
must feel like a triumph for Those postdocs and
PhD students who were working on that.
Um, just another example though, of this. And
we're spending a bit longer than we probably should on this
story, but, um, the same is
true in space missions, and in fact,
uh, even more so because, uh, there's no
quick fix if you're doing a science space mission.
Um, and the one example that, um. Excuse me, I've got an
itch on my nose. Uh, the one example that comes, uh,
to mind is somebody who Marnie and I know
quite well, Linda Spilker. She was the,
uh, project scientist for the Cassini mission,
uh, NASA's mission, uh, in orbit
around Saturn from. Was it
2004 to 2017. It was in orbit
around Saturn. And she basically dedicated
her life, uh, to that
project. She started off working
on Voyager, in fact, at the beginning of her
career, which was one of the pioneering ones, but then
switched to a mission to go to Saturn and
worked on that for probably more than 20
years, uh, culminating in being the mission
scientist. I think that was one of the best
space missions that's ever, ever happened because
we learned so much. But she's now working on,
um, uh, the possibility of sending
spacecrafts to some of Saturn's moons, like, um,
Enceladus, where we think, well, we know there's an ocean of water
underneath the icy surface. So,
um, in some ways people start off,
you know, with one project, but it
germinates into something else that does become their life's
work. That's certainly what happened with Linda.
So, uh, yes, for the people who were involved right at the
outset of the Vera C. Rubin Observatory, or
the LSST as we used to call it, um,
this must be a moment to savor. And, you know, I'm, um,
sure there are people out there who are in exactly the
situation that you've described.
Heidi Campo: That is the. That is such a cool part of
these sciences is the things that we do. We may never
see the fruits of those labors in our lifetime.
And so the people who really commit to the
true visionaries, not just the people who want to do
it for a title or, you know, getting the
Netflix documentary, the people who really want to change the
future is usually a future they may never live to
see. And they know that, but they commit to, uh,
dedicating their life to this work. And it's. That's just
amazing and selfless to me. And, you
know, there's. There's a lot, um, to be said
about the leaps that we make with the people
who think that way. But we also need the people
who are going to go out there and then, you know, do the
work. The people who are going to make that vision, actualize
it. And those are the astronauts who are out there living
on the space station right now. These are the people who are
building on the sciences that we've been working
on since, you know,
Galileo. This is stuff
humanity's been working on for a long time.
Space nuts.
So with that being said, I think that's a good segue into
talking about what's going on on the space station
right now.
Professor Fred Watson: Um, and it's a busy time. Um,
um, I was, ah, struck when I
looked, you know, kept an eye, try and keep an eye on what's going on
on the space station. But we've got,
um, it's getting a bit crowded up there, I have
to say. So at the moment we
have 11 astronauts, uh, living on the
space station. Um, and I was
interested to read that they've all sort of, um,
divvied up all the sleep stations that there are. And the
various people are sleeping in effectively
cupboards and, you know, um, work
rooms and things of that sort, uh, so that they all have their
sleep stat. Ah. So what's caused this? There
are currently seven astronauts,
uh, NASA astronauts who are the
working sort of standard astronauts, uh,
on the space station. Uh, they are a member of what's
called Expedition 73, um, those seven
astronauts, but they've been joined by four
privately funded astronauts, uh, on a mission
called the AX4 mission. It's AXION Space
that is doing that with specific, um,
requirements for experiments. I think
Axiom have got something like they've got two
weeks on the space station and I think they've got, I don't know,
three, five dozen or something experiments that
they've got to do, uh, some of which, um, are
very much along the lines of your own
interests. Heidi, because it's all about human,
you know, the way humans interact with space. I was really
interested to read that one of the experiments was
something called the thigh cough. And
uh, a thigh cuff is a tight cuff
on your thigh, obviously. Uh, and it's all
about trying to change the way the fluids move
in your body. Because in weightlessness the
fluids in your body do unusual things,
uh, and they tend to pool inside your head, which is
not a good thing. Um, and so
basically, um, that's uh,
one of the experiments that's been done. I don't know whether you're
familiar with, uh, the use of thigh.
Heidi Campo: Yeah, so I was reading this right now and, and at
the risk of sounding foolish in case, um, anyone
out there is listening who knows a lot more about this than me, I
was reading this article to try and see if they specify if this
thigh cuff is BFR technology or if it's
separate. Because, you know, I don't. I don't know everything.
But, um, I think I'm saying think
and italicized right now. I think when they're talking
about a thigh cuff, what they're talking is
talking about is what they call BFR technology, which
stands for blood flow restriction technology.
That is, um, a
training and exercise technique that's used here on
Earth. It's actually become quite popular with bodybuilders
because they've realized that they can get, um,
greater muscular hypertrophy benefits when
training that way. And if you guys don't know what
muscular hypertrophy means, that's increasing the
muscle size. So in space, one of our big
problems is muscle atrophy. We're losing
muscles, we're losing bone density. So
when we train with blood flow restriction, it
helps sort of expedite, you know, there's
no shortcuts, but it does enhance the effects of
exercise. And the more
interesting thing, I don't know if it's more interesting, but an
additional benefit is they're actually using it
to help mitigate the effects of Sands right now as well.
Professor Fred Watson: The effect of. Sorry, I missed the word you said there.
Heidi Campo: Sans. Sans. S A, N, S.
I'm, um, surprised you haven't heard about that one. I got to teach you something.
Um, Sans is a neuro
ocular syndrome which affects
vision of astronauts in space.
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Heidi Campo: So their vision.
Professor Fred Watson: Didn't know it was called that.
Heidi Campo: Yeah, yeah, it has a. Has its own
acronym, just like everything else up there.
Professor Fred Watson: So, um, yeah, that's quite a serious one because that's one of
the. I think that's one of the deleterious
effects that spaceflight, um, has that does
not recover when you get back to
normal, uh, gravity.
Heidi Campo: Sometimes it does. Okay, so
sometimes it improves, sometimes it doesn't improve.
Sometimes they make a little bit of progress. And there have been
cases, believe it or not, where crew members have
gone up needing prescription glasses and
have had to wear prescription glasses their whole
life. And they go up there and they come back and their,
their prescription is fixed. And they've
joked, uh, the joke was made when I was at this presentation. They're like,
yeah, that was the most expensive eye corrective surgery ever.
Professor Fred Watson: But, yeah, that's, uh, that's fantastic. Um,
look, I had not heard that. So, yeah, if
you want to fix your eye problems, um, go
into space.
Heidi Campo: Or make it worse. It's a roll the dice.
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. My way. Yes, it's. It's,
uh, it's a bit of a toss up as to which way
it goes.
Um, um, so just, you know,
celebrating the fact that we do have such a busy space
station at the moment. Um, the,
um, leader of expedition, uh,
70. I beg your pardon. The leader of the
Axion crew. Axion 4 crew
is, uh. And this is the privately
funded one, uh, is actually Peggy
Whitson, who's a big name in
astronaut circles. I think she holds one
of the records for, uh.
Yes, the record for the most time in space by an
American and worldwide by a woman.
So she is very much a veteran of
spaceflight. And what, um, you know,
you didn't really imagine a better leader for a
flight crew than somebody like Peggy. And the other thing
I liked is that, um, not only is the
space station getting pretty full, but all the
parking spaces are getting used up as well
because there are three docked
crew spacecraft, uh, at the
moment, and there are two docked cargo
spacecraft at the moment as well. And you know, there's
not that many docking ports on the International
Space Station. So I think they're running out of space up
there. It's great to see it being so
busy at the moment, given that we're probably going
to use it, lose it in five years time. So
make the most of it.
Heidi Campo: Yeah, yeah, it'll be, uh. It's a. It's
amazing what's going on up there. It really is.
And I actually, I just forgot to also mention, speaking of busy, I
think today's International Asteroid Day.
Professor Fred Watson: Uh, okay.
Heidi Campo: I think I saw that on LinkedIn.
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, it's, uh. So that celebrates. I think, if I remember
rightly, International Asteroid Day is
the day of the Tunguska, uh,
um, meteorite or asteroid impact, which happened
in, um, in Siberia in
1908.
Heidi Campo: Uh. Is that the one that got the dinosaurs?
Professor Fred Watson: No, no, that's right. No, that was 66 million years ago.
Yeah, this was only a century ago.
Uh, let's just do.
Heidi Campo: Just trying to keep our listeners on their feet.
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, absolutely. Asteroid day
2025. Um. Oh, yes, it's
yesterday our time. It's the 30th of June.
You're absolutely right. And it's what, um, that's the
celebration that you, uh, that it's the date of
the, um. The same day as the 1908
Tunguska event, so.
Heidi Campo: Well, Happy asteroid day, Fred.
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, and you too.
I did my master. Sorry, go on, you go.
No, I was just going to say I did my master's degree on um,
researching um, asteroid orbits with these newfangled things called
computers. Um, and uh, in those days it was very
unfash fashionable to be interested in asteroids, but it's not
now because we're all interested in asteroids.
Who knows what they might do.
Heidi Campo: Space nuts. Yeah.
Speaking of asteroids, do they have anything
to do with these weird
landscapes on Mars? I have been, I
was uh, scrolling on social media a couple days ago and I came
across these images of these
weird ridges and craters on Mars. And
it's weird, the shadows almost, some of the pictures
I was looking at, the shadows almost looked like trees.
And for a second I had this weird. And I was fantasizing
Mars terraformed, but it not looking
like Earth, it looking like an alien
Earth, you know, and I was like, wow, that'd be so weird. But yeah.
What is going on with this landscape?
Professor Fred Watson: Um, it's a surprise actually to everybody, uh,
including you and me. So uh,
and this comes from Curiosity, uh, the rover
that's been working hard on the uh, surface
of Mars for, What was it,
2012 when
Curiosity landed? I think it was a long time ago.
Um, so Curiosity is at a place called uh,
um, Gale Crater
2014. Okay. Gale Crater
has a mountain on it called Mount Sharp. And uh,
that's what the spacecraft was designed to
explore, which has done very well. But we've got
um, in Gale Crater we've now got this
new form of a landform that has never
been seen before. Um, and
it's, they're calling it the boxwork lattice,
uh, landform. Um, and
that sort of gives you an idea of what it might look like.
You know, some of these, I'm m actually
thinking perhaps it's just the way my mind
works. But I'm thinking of those inserts that sometimes
go in a box of a dozen bottles of wine,
uh, because they have cardboard inserts uh, in them that
are sort of like this lattice shape. And I think that's
the shape of these ridges that have been found. They're not,
you know, they're not very deep, they're only a few
inches high, but
they're ridges in an absolute pattern,
um, very boxy looking pattern
and they haven't been seen before. And so uh,
that is exciting. The planetary scientists who
are looking at the results coming from Curiosity.
Um, and so of course the first thing you have to do is work
out what you think Might have caused them.
Uh, and the current theory
is that uh, when Mars was
drying out, and this is probably 3.8 billion years ago,
because we know it was warm and wet before that. But when it
was drying out, there was probably a very dry
surface, but with groundwater
that was underneath the surface. And
um, that groundwater would have been rich in
minerals. And basically, uh, what
it did was came up through cracks in the
bedrock. So the bedrock itself has had to crack
and let the groundwater up through the
cracks. And what we then see, uh, is
the groundwater disappears, it leaves the minerals behind.
The minerals are harder than the, the bedrock
itself. And so as the bedrock wears away
with the effect of dust and wind over
the last 3.8 billion years, you're left with
this, um, almost a structure that
looks a bit like a curb, uh, you know, on a
roadway. Uh, but it's, but it's shaped in a, in a
boxy pattern. So. Yes, quite
remarkable that uh, we're
seeing new landforms that have not been identified
before. And of course all of this helps by telling us
about the history of Mars and the confirming, uh,
perhaps yet again that Mars once had a lot more water than
it does now.
Heidi Campo: I'm also looking at some searches and the conspiracy
theorists are going crazy with it's remnants of a city.
Professor Fred Watson: Okay. Oh, yes, I never thought of that.
Yeah. Remnants of a city. Well, that's right, you know, um,
of course, um, pareidolia.
That's the, uh. Ah, do you know about
pareidolia? It's a lovely word. It's,
I'm sure you've come across it. Yeah, it's when you see
familiar things, uh, in
objects that have nothing to do with them. So when you see
figures in clouds, or when you see
rocks that are shaped like um,
a truck tire or a spoon
or whatever, um, it's our inbuilt
ability to recognize shapes in things that are quite
unrelated. Um, and of course the classic
one on Mars was the face on Mars from the Viking
orbiters back in 1976. This
clearly a human face on Mars. And
uh, it gained so much. It
was a giant, it was a landform actually. But it
gained so much publicity that NASA
actually changed the orbit of their next
spacecraft so that it would fly over this area
and take images. And of course we could see it was just a crumbling
mountaintop, uh, not a face at all.
Heidi Campo: It inspired that weird movie Mission to Mars. Did you
see that one?
Professor Fred Watson: Um, may have done.
Heidi Campo: It was goofy. It scared me when I was a little kid.
There's like A tornado and an alien.
Professor Fred Watson: And probably scared me too.
Heidi Campo: Yeah, it's, you know, the humans, the human's ability
for recognition. You know, I think about, um,
AI and how AI is getting really good at recognizing
things, but the human brain's ability
to make these recognition, I. I still think
it's unmatched. I don't know. The technology is probably
catching up, but it really is fascinating,
like recognizing emotion and very, very
subtle changes on the human. On the human face.
Have you ever heard of the term the uncanny valley?
Professor Fred Watson: Oh, no, I haven't. No.
Heidi Campo: It's a. It's a term used a lot in,
um, like, film design, like, in, like,
scary movies. But it's, uh,
also in, like, art and anthropology. But long
story short, the uncanny valley, if you're looking at a
cartoon face of Mickey Mouse where it's like, okay, it's kind of
like human, there's an eyes, nose and mouth. Mickey
Mouse's face is not scary at all. It's just cute and cartoony,
but the more realistic it gets.
But it's still cartoonish. There's a
point where it starts becoming scary. And that's
where a lot of, like, people will. Will use the
example of the movie the Polar Express, where the
CGI was really good, very human,
like, but there was like a blank, blank stare
and the emotions weren't quite right. So they call it the
uncanny valley because it's. It's
a point where we see
something that's almost human, but it's not quite human and
we don't like it. It makes us feel unsettled.
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
Heidi Campo: And it's crazy that humans have that built in
unsettledness with something that's almost human but
not human.
Professor Fred Watson: M. No. That's very telling
about something deep in our, you know, in our
psyche that probably goes
back to ancient times in our
evolutionary makeup.
Heidi Campo: There's lots and lots of theories. Let us know what you guys think,
if you guys have any, um, thoughts or
theories on the uncanny valley and how
that relates to our pattern recognition of the
man on the moon or the face on Mars or
having. How I saw these images of these,
uh, rocks on Mars and I thought of trees right
away.
Professor Fred Watson: Obviously. Some others thought about cities as well.
Heidi Campo: Yeah. What did you see when you looked at this, Fred?
Professor Fred Watson: Um, I saw pretty well what I was being told to look for.
Ridges. Oh, it's ridges. Yeah.
Heidi Campo: Good analytical mind.
Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Well, that's not. Perhaps it's not a good
analytical mind. I just take it for granted.
Yeah, it's a good point. I did, actually. There's quite a nice, um,
on one of the websites, uh, and
I'm sure it's well available. Uh, There's a nice
360 degree panorama from Curiosity
that you can scan around and you can actually see these
ridges from Curiosity's viewpoint.
So it's worth a look. I think that's, um, come
from jpl, which of course is the organization
that is operating the spacecraft.
Heidi Campo: That's fantastic. Fred. This has been so much
fun today. Thank you for joining me and bringing some
sunshine to our rainy day,
um, keeping us all curious.
Professor Fred Watson: It's always a pleasure, Heidi. And, um, yeah, we've got rain
coming here too, so I might need a bit of your sunshine
when the. When the sky's clear in Houston.
Heidi Campo: All right, well, hopefully the rest of you are all staying warm and
dry. And, uh, we thank you so much for joining us.
And this has been another fun, exciting, enlightening
episode of Space Nuts.
Voice Over Guy: Space Nuts. You've been listening to the
SpaceNuts podcast,
available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast
player. You can also stream on demand at
bitesz.com. This has been another quality podcast
production from bitesz.com.