WEBVTT 0 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.480 Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. 1 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:02.400 Andrew Dunkley: Thanks for joining us yet again. This is 2 00:00:02.400 --> 00:00:04.600 Space Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunkley, your 3 00:00:04.600 --> 00:00:06.640 host and it is so good to have your company 4 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:10.160 and I hope you're well. Uh, coming up on this 5 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:12.640 particular episode, Artemis 2. 6 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:15.560 Yes, the mission to the moon. Uh, we have an 7 00:00:15.560 --> 00:00:17.760 update for you and it's really good news. 8 00:00:18.560 --> 00:00:21.040 Could we have discovered a wormhole? 9 00:00:21.360 --> 00:00:24.280 That's a big question. And an Einstein cross 10 00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:26.730 has been spotted. They marked it with a cross 11 00:00:26.730 --> 00:00:28.770 and then drew a circle around it. That's all 12 00:00:28.770 --> 00:00:31.690 coming up on this edition of space nuts. 13 00:00:31.770 --> 00:00:34.250 Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 14 00:00:34.490 --> 00:00:37.130 10, 9. Ignition 15 00:00:37.130 --> 00:00:40.094 sequence star space nuts. 5, 4, 3, 16 00:00:40.166 --> 00:00:42.974 2. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 17 00:00:43.046 --> 00:00:46.010 3, 2, 1. Space nuts. Astronauts 18 00:00:46.010 --> 00:00:47.210 report it feels good. 19 00:00:47.610 --> 00:00:50.170 Andrew Dunkley: And he's here again to unravel 20 00:00:50.410 --> 00:00:52.600 all the revelment of space space 21 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:55.040 science. His name is Professor Fred Watson 22 00:00:55.040 --> 00:00:56.640 Watson, astronomer at large. Hello, 23 00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:57.000 Fred Watson. 24 00:00:57.240 --> 00:00:59.200 Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. I think actually we're 25 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:00.960 probably as good at, uh, ravelling it as we 26 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:02.440 are unravelling it. Really. 27 00:01:02.440 --> 00:01:05.200 Andrew Dunkley: I, I tend to agree. Yes, you're 28 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:06.040 absolutely right. 29 00:01:06.440 --> 00:01:09.120 Before we get into today's top topics, 30 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:12.110 you are, um, uh, in Melbourne, I believe, uh, 31 00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:13.640 attending, uh, a conference. 32 00:01:13.720 --> 00:01:16.480 Professor Fred Watson: I am, yes. Uh, sunny Melbourne, which 33 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:18.320 isn't at the moment, although it was briefly 34 00:01:18.320 --> 00:01:20.400 this morning. Four seasons in one day is what 35 00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:21.260 they say about Melbourne. 36 00:01:21.260 --> 00:01:22.840 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, reputation for that. 37 00:01:23.080 --> 00:01:25.700 Professor Fred Watson: I think we' already this week. 38 00:01:25.940 --> 00:01:28.540 So, um, the conference I'm at is at Deakin 39 00:01:28.540 --> 00:01:30.660 University here in Melbourne. It is called 40 00:01:30.740 --> 00:01:33.460 Astro. Edu or Astro 41 00:01:33.460 --> 00:01:35.860 Edu, um, for Astronomy Education 42 00:01:36.100 --> 00:01:38.740 2025. And it's actually an international 43 00:01:38.900 --> 00:01:41.260 conference, Uh, I think I'm right in saying 44 00:01:41.260 --> 00:01:42.340 it's sponsored by the International 45 00:01:42.500 --> 00:01:45.460 Astronomical Union. Um, so 46 00:01:45.460 --> 00:01:46.980 it's a conference of international 47 00:01:48.020 --> 00:01:50.910 astronomy educators. And so quite a 48 00:01:50.910 --> 00:01:53.630 lot of it is about the 49 00:01:53.630 --> 00:01:55.990 theory of education, as, 50 00:01:56.710 --> 00:01:58.310 you know, applied to astronomy education. 51 00:01:58.790 --> 00:02:00.710 Quite a lot of it is about the practise of 52 00:02:00.870 --> 00:02:02.870 astronomy education. So there are real 53 00:02:02.870 --> 00:02:05.840 teachers here, uh, who teach kids, um, 54 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:08.790 you know, from kindergarten to year 55 00:02:09.110 --> 00:02:11.590 12, uh, and university as well. 56 00:02:11.990 --> 00:02:14.830 Um, and um, one or two astronomers as well. 57 00:02:14.830 --> 00:02:17.300 And we're there because we're interested in 58 00:02:17.300 --> 00:02:19.940 education. I'm, um, only an amateur 59 00:02:19.940 --> 00:02:22.180 educator, but a professional astronomer. So 60 00:02:22.420 --> 00:02:25.380 my talk yesterday was about the 61 00:02:25.700 --> 00:02:28.180 possibilities for using mega 62 00:02:28.180 --> 00:02:29.940 constellations in astronomy education. 63 00:02:30.180 --> 00:02:31.980 Because there's quite a number of ideas that 64 00:02:31.980 --> 00:02:34.580 come out of, you know, what we and you and I 65 00:02:34.580 --> 00:02:36.780 talk about routinely. Uh, the mega 66 00:02:36.780 --> 00:02:39.540 constellations, um, a lot of astronomy 67 00:02:39.620 --> 00:02:42.460 in that. And in terms of, um, trying 68 00:02:42.460 --> 00:02:44.870 to, uh, perhaps, 69 00:02:44.950 --> 00:02:47.870 uh, provide some, um, 70 00:02:47.870 --> 00:02:50.590 background in astronomy education that might 71 00:02:50.590 --> 00:02:53.090 otherwise, um, be missed. Um, 72 00:02:53.430 --> 00:02:55.150 and I'm thinking of things like, you know, 73 00:02:55.150 --> 00:02:56.350 how you measure the brightness of the 74 00:02:56.350 --> 00:02:58.390 satellites. We use the star magnitudes the 75 00:02:58.390 --> 00:03:00.390 same as we do in astronomy. Uh, why 76 00:03:00.390 --> 00:03:03.150 satellites are bright themselves, why radio 77 00:03:03.150 --> 00:03:05.760 telescopes are at great risk from satellite, 78 00:03:05.760 --> 00:03:07.750 uh, constellations, all of the above. 79 00:03:08.060 --> 00:03:10.860 Um, but um, my talk aside, 80 00:03:10.860 --> 00:03:12.900 which was a minor contribution to this 81 00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:14.420 conference, there have been some fantastic 82 00:03:14.420 --> 00:03:17.260 presentations, um, really encouraging 83 00:03:17.260 --> 00:03:19.100 about the state of astronomy education 84 00:03:20.380 --> 00:03:23.020 in lands as far apart as 85 00:03:23.420 --> 00:03:26.300 Chile, uh, and uh, Germany 86 00:03:26.300 --> 00:03:28.940 and Belgium, Sweden, 87 00:03:29.340 --> 00:03:32.140 Portugal, North America, Canada. 88 00:03:32.780 --> 00:03:34.980 Inspiring presentation from Canada this 89 00:03:34.980 --> 00:03:37.340 morning. Lovely chat from an educator in 90 00:03:37.340 --> 00:03:39.700 Hawaii, uh, who I talk to later because I 91 00:03:39.700 --> 00:03:42.480 used to work in Hawaii a lot. So a lot of 92 00:03:42.480 --> 00:03:45.360 the folklore tales in astronomy he was 93 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:47.160 aware of and some, what some of his 94 00:03:47.160 --> 00:03:49.040 colleagues were as well. But what was really 95 00:03:49.040 --> 00:03:51.600 nice was getting a shout out from uh, from a 96 00:03:51.600 --> 00:03:53.760 couple of, particularly a couple of this 97 00:03:53.760 --> 00:03:55.560 morning's presenters. They did get a keynote 98 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:58.480 presentation, um, um, Mari Timms and 99 00:03:58.480 --> 00:04:00.970 Sandra Woodward. Um, uh, 100 00:04:01.510 --> 00:04:04.440 um, m mentioned, um, you know, stuff that 101 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:07.160 I do and that we do, uh, including a very 102 00:04:07.160 --> 00:04:09.840 nice shout out about space nuts, which 103 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:13.200 apparently is um, very much 104 00:04:13.200 --> 00:04:15.600 a source of inspiration to talk about with, 105 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:17.120 with kids in class. 106 00:04:17.520 --> 00:04:18.480 Andrew Dunkley: Oh, wonderful. 107 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:20.600 Professor Fred Watson: Maybe we are useful after all, Andrew. 108 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:23.000 Andrew Dunkley: Possibly. Maybe we do contribute a little bit 109 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:25.360 to education. Or maybe it's pseudoscience. 110 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:27.760 Professor Fred Watson: No, it's not pseudoscience. 111 00:04:27.760 --> 00:04:28.960 Andrew Dunkley: No, it's not, not at all. 112 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:31.640 Professor Fred Watson: It's just um, you know, it's our take on the 113 00:04:31.640 --> 00:04:33.480 universe which might not necessarily be the 114 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:34.920 same as some other people's, but I think 115 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:36.500 we're reasonably near the mark. 116 00:04:36.900 --> 00:04:39.140 Andrew Dunkley: So that's so rare in science. Frick. 117 00:04:40.500 --> 00:04:42.230 Professor Fred Watson: Yes. Um, 118 00:04:42.980 --> 00:04:43.580 yeah. 119 00:04:43.580 --> 00:04:45.300 So that's why I'm here in Melbourne in a 120 00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:47.700 hotel room. Jordy is um, about a thousand 121 00:04:47.700 --> 00:04:49.500 kilometres away, so you might not hear him 122 00:04:49.500 --> 00:04:49.780 today. 123 00:04:49.780 --> 00:04:50.980 Andrew Dunkley: I think we will hear him. 124 00:04:52.180 --> 00:04:53.540 Professor Fred Watson: I think we will probably. 125 00:04:54.740 --> 00:04:56.700 Andrew Dunkley: Oh, uh, wonderful. I'm glad it's going well. 126 00:04:56.700 --> 00:04:58.020 And uh, a lot of people there. 127 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:01.500 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, there are 81 participants. Yes. Uh, some 128 00:05:01.500 --> 00:05:03.300 of them are online but uh, there's quite a 129 00:05:03.300 --> 00:05:05.620 good healthy handful. What, what I also 130 00:05:05.620 --> 00:05:08.380 really like about it is the gender 131 00:05:08.380 --> 00:05:09.940 balance. 50. 50. 132 00:05:10.420 --> 00:05:11.140 Andrew Dunkley: Excellent. 133 00:05:11.140 --> 00:05:11.886 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. 50. 134 00:05:11.954 --> 00:05:12.260 Andrew Dunkley: 50. 135 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:15.340 Professor Fred Watson: Um, that's um. Yeah, I think that's a very 136 00:05:15.340 --> 00:05:16.420 important aspect of it. 137 00:05:16.420 --> 00:05:19.340 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I, we can't claim M.50.50, but 138 00:05:19.340 --> 00:05:21.680 this week we're running in Dubbo, uh, 139 00:05:22.140 --> 00:05:24.980 the uh, New South Wales Veterans 140 00:05:25.060 --> 00:05:26.620 State Golf Championships. 141 00:05:26.620 --> 00:05:27.780 Professor Fred Watson: Oh yes, you said you were. 142 00:05:27.780 --> 00:05:30.620 Andrew Dunkley: And we've got about 100 and let's say 143 00:05:30.620 --> 00:05:32.260 120. 130 144 00:05:33.140 --> 00:05:35.860 participants and about 145 00:05:36.180 --> 00:05:38.180 nearly 50 of them are women. So. 146 00:05:38.260 --> 00:05:38.660 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. 147 00:05:38.660 --> 00:05:39.220 Andrew Dunkley: That's pretty good. 148 00:05:39.620 --> 00:05:40.300 Professor Fred Watson: That is great. 149 00:05:40.300 --> 00:05:42.740 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I'm having a crack at the championship. 150 00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:46.300 I've got, uh. I think the funny 151 00:05:46.300 --> 00:05:48.420 story is, uh, I said to someone, look, I've 152 00:05:48.420 --> 00:05:50.540 signed up for the state championships. I 153 00:05:50.540 --> 00:05:53.300 don't know why. And he said to me, oh, no, 154 00:05:53.300 --> 00:05:55.140 no, you gotta play. And I said, why do you 155 00:05:55.140 --> 00:05:56.900 think that? He said, because they need at 156 00:05:56.900 --> 00:05:57.780 least 40 players. 157 00:05:59.620 --> 00:06:01.650 Thanks. Thanks for the vote of confidence. 158 00:06:03.410 --> 00:06:05.130 I've actually played two rounds and I've done 159 00:06:05.130 --> 00:06:05.570 all right. 160 00:06:05.730 --> 00:06:06.530 Professor Fred Watson: Oh, that's great. 161 00:06:07.410 --> 00:06:08.810 Andrew Dunkley: I'm not going to win. There's a couple of 162 00:06:08.810 --> 00:06:11.090 guns that are just. But I'm hoping to finish 163 00:06:11.090 --> 00:06:12.930 top 10 state championship. 164 00:06:12.930 --> 00:06:15.490 Professor Fred Watson: Top 10 will be pretty damn good for golf, 165 00:06:15.490 --> 00:06:18.330 which is not an easy game. No, but aren't you 166 00:06:18.330 --> 00:06:20.210 organising the event? Isn't this a conflict 167 00:06:20.210 --> 00:06:20.690 of interest? 168 00:06:20.820 --> 00:06:23.420 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, yeah, I'm part of the committee, but, uh, 169 00:06:23.650 --> 00:06:26.570 my only major role is to emcee the 170 00:06:26.570 --> 00:06:28.110 presentation night. 171 00:06:28.670 --> 00:06:30.110 Professor Fred Watson: So if you're getting an award. 172 00:06:30.660 --> 00:06:33.590 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, I won't be giving the awards. I'm just 173 00:06:33.590 --> 00:06:36.590 the mc. But I. Look, that's 174 00:06:36.590 --> 00:06:37.630 not even going to be a problem. 175 00:06:39.950 --> 00:06:41.750 Not unless I shoot the lights out in the 176 00:06:41.750 --> 00:06:43.510 final round tomorrow. But we'll see. 177 00:06:43.510 --> 00:06:45.510 Professor Fred Watson: Well, you might do. You might. You never do 178 00:06:45.510 --> 00:06:47.190 that. Putting the lights out so was a good 179 00:06:47.190 --> 00:06:47.470 move. 180 00:06:47.630 --> 00:06:50.190 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, Golf's like that. 181 00:06:50.350 --> 00:06:52.190 Could go the other way as well. I've got to 182 00:06:52.270 --> 00:06:54.940 keep that in mind. Now we, we uh, 183 00:06:55.090 --> 00:06:56.920 better get down to why we're here and uh, 184 00:06:56.920 --> 00:06:58.570 that is to talk about things that are 185 00:06:58.570 --> 00:07:00.530 happening in astronomy and space science. 186 00:07:00.530 --> 00:07:03.200 And one of the things we've talked about, uh, 187 00:07:03.200 --> 00:07:05.680 on a fairly regular basis is, uh, these, uh, 188 00:07:05.690 --> 00:07:08.450 NASA missions to the moon, known as the 189 00:07:08.450 --> 00:07:11.330 Artemis project. Um, Artemis 190 00:07:11.330 --> 00:07:14.050 1 has been, and done its thing, ah, a 191 00:07:14.050 --> 00:07:16.530 lap of the moon with nobody on board or maybe 192 00:07:16.530 --> 00:07:19.290 a couple of plush toys. Um, but, 193 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:22.090 uh, now they're saying that they 194 00:07:22.250 --> 00:07:25.210 think Artemis 2 will be on its way, 195 00:07:25.840 --> 00:07:28.130 uh, at the latest. April, but possibly 196 00:07:28.130 --> 00:07:28.650 sooner. 197 00:07:29.210 --> 00:07:31.970 Professor Fred Watson: Well, it was, um, no sooner than April. That 198 00:07:31.970 --> 00:07:34.770 was the deal, uh, so far. But 199 00:07:34.770 --> 00:07:37.210 the news we've had today is that 200 00:07:37.610 --> 00:07:40.410 the launch window, uh, in fact is being 201 00:07:40.410 --> 00:07:42.290 brought forward and could be as early as the 202 00:07:42.290 --> 00:07:43.210 5th of February. 203 00:07:43.450 --> 00:07:44.010 Andrew Dunkley: Yes. 204 00:07:44.250 --> 00:07:46.120 Professor Fred Watson: So we're looking now at ah, 205 00:07:46.570 --> 00:07:49.450 Artemis flying much earlier than 206 00:07:49.450 --> 00:07:52.050 we had expected. Artemis 2. 207 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:54.530 Um, and I think one of the reasons for that 208 00:07:54.530 --> 00:07:57.170 is that we've, We've been seeing news 209 00:07:57.170 --> 00:07:59.210 reports. I'm sure you've caught them as well, 210 00:07:59.210 --> 00:08:01.930 Andrew, that um, the hardware is 211 00:08:01.930 --> 00:08:04.250 ready to go, that the, you know, the space 212 00:08:04.250 --> 00:08:06.290 launch system, which will take astronauts to 213 00:08:06.290 --> 00:08:08.970 the moon. And um, the, the 214 00:08:08.970 --> 00:08:11.250 Orion capsule, it's all ready to go. 215 00:08:11.760 --> 00:08:14.370 Um, and bearing in mind that this, this 216 00:08:14.370 --> 00:08:16.810 mission is essentially a Repeat of the 217 00:08:16.810 --> 00:08:19.250 11-22-2022 mission, 218 00:08:19.820 --> 00:08:22.160 uh, which was a 25 day mission, it's actually 219 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:25.000 a shorter, shorter version of it. Uh but 220 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:27.960 Artemis 1, um, basically did what 221 00:08:27.960 --> 00:08:30.480 Artemis 2 will do. It launched and 222 00:08:31.010 --> 00:08:33.760 uh, sent this, the capsule into 223 00:08:33.920 --> 00:08:36.720 orbit around the moon, um taking it actually 224 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:38.760 quite a lot further away than the moon's 225 00:08:38.760 --> 00:08:41.360 distance, um, and then bringing it back re 226 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.000 entering and picking it up in, in the ocean. 227 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:47.050 So that was a very successful um, 228 00:08:47.560 --> 00:08:50.440 dress rehearsal for what Artemis 2 229 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:51.760 will be like. And I'm sure the four 230 00:08:51.760 --> 00:08:54.680 astronauts who are going to fly uh, trained 231 00:08:54.760 --> 00:08:57.560 up to the gunnels, uh and it 232 00:08:57.560 --> 00:09:00.440 will be really great to see them 233 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:02.520 stepping into the spacecraft in February I 234 00:09:02.520 --> 00:09:02.760 think. 235 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:04.960 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, yes. Won't that be exciting? And the 236 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.800 first time in 54 237 00:09:07.800 --> 00:09:10.680 years is it uh, we've 238 00:09:10.680 --> 00:09:11.880 sent people to the moon? 239 00:09:12.310 --> 00:09:15.240 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, yes, um, well 1970. 240 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:18.160 No, 72 was the last. 72, 241 00:09:18.160 --> 00:09:20.720 that's right, yes it's, it will be 54. Yes, 242 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:23.690 you're right, 54 years. Um, um, 243 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:27.800 the thing that, a 244 00:09:27.800 --> 00:09:30.160 point I didn't make is that um, these, the 245 00:09:30.160 --> 00:09:32.000 astronauts will not land on the moon. That's 246 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:34.440 Artemis 3. Artemis 2 is 247 00:09:34.760 --> 00:09:37.600 purely going around the moon, uh, and going 248 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:39.950 through all the required manoeuvres that will 249 00:09:40.110 --> 00:09:43.030 be needed when um, they actually do 250 00:09:43.030 --> 00:09:45.850 go to the moon in Artemis 3, for example, um, 251 00:09:45.850 --> 00:09:47.230 this idea of you know, 252 00:09:48.510 --> 00:09:51.430 undocking spacecraft ah from a, from a 253 00:09:51.430 --> 00:09:53.910 module, a service module, turning it around 254 00:09:53.910 --> 00:09:55.910 to be facing the way you want it to and then 255 00:09:55.910 --> 00:09:58.230 re docking again. That kind of manoeuvre very 256 00:09:58.230 --> 00:10:00.870 much the stocking trade of the Apollo era 257 00:10:00.870 --> 00:10:02.830 astronauts. But of course now we've got new 258 00:10:02.830 --> 00:10:05.150 technology, quite uh, different technology. 259 00:10:05.990 --> 00:10:08.660 Um, a quick shout out to the crew. Uh, 260 00:10:08.810 --> 00:10:11.570 Christina Koch, Richard Glover. Victor 261 00:10:11.570 --> 00:10:12.970 Glover. Not Richard Glover, 262 00:10:14.250 --> 00:10:17.090 Victor Glover, sorry Victor. Um, uh, 263 00:10:17.090 --> 00:10:20.090 Reed Wiseman and Jeremy Hansen. They are 264 00:10:20.090 --> 00:10:23.090 the ah, the Crew of Artemis 265 00:10:23.090 --> 00:10:25.850 2. Heavily in training I'm sure 266 00:10:25.850 --> 00:10:28.850 still and all ready to take their um, their 267 00:10:28.850 --> 00:10:31.530 Orion capsule around the moon to give us 268 00:10:31.690 --> 00:10:34.590 a fabulous view. So yes, the point um, 269 00:10:34.680 --> 00:10:36.560 I think that you're making is that this is 270 00:10:36.560 --> 00:10:39.040 the first time in 54 years that 271 00:10:39.040 --> 00:10:41.080 astronauts will have gone out of low Earth 272 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.760 orbit which is where they've been uh, in the 273 00:10:43.760 --> 00:10:45.520 International Space Station. We haven't had 274 00:10:45.520 --> 00:10:48.120 anybody going, venturing out and of course 275 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:50.040 when you do that, when you go between the 276 00:10:50.040 --> 00:10:52.240 moon and the Earth, you're in what we might 277 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.300 call deep space from A point of view of a, 278 00:10:54.300 --> 00:10:57.160 uh, spacecraft, uh, which means that 279 00:10:57.400 --> 00:10:59.440 you're uh, subject to the sun's radiation and 280 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:01.790 all of that other stuff. And uh. So there'll 281 00:11:01.790 --> 00:11:04.580 be lots and lots of medical work done, um, 282 00:11:04.580 --> 00:11:06.950 on analysing how these astronauts have 283 00:11:06.950 --> 00:11:08.510 reacted to that and responded to that. 284 00:11:08.510 --> 00:11:11.230 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, yes. And uh. I believe that they 285 00:11:11.230 --> 00:11:13.780 will be, um. 286 00:11:13.780 --> 00:11:16.030 Travelling further than any other human being 287 00:11:16.030 --> 00:11:18.950 has ever gone in terms of space travel. 288 00:11:18.950 --> 00:11:20.150 Because they'll be travelling 289 00:11:20.950 --> 00:11:23.510 9,200 kilometres past the moon. 290 00:11:23.510 --> 00:11:25.310 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right, yeah. Yeah. 291 00:11:25.310 --> 00:11:27.110 Andrew Dunkley: They still, they still won't be the most 292 00:11:27.110 --> 00:11:29.440 isolated human humans in history. Michael 293 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:32.120 Collins still retains that because he was by 294 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:34.880 himself, uh, in orbit around the 295 00:11:34.880 --> 00:11:37.880 moon. And uh, I believe in his 296 00:11:37.880 --> 00:11:40.840 mission, Apollo 11, he was further out 297 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:42.960 than any of the others that were on the 298 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:43.720 command module. 299 00:11:44.040 --> 00:11:46.600 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I think that's correct. I mean all the. 300 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:49.240 All the Apollo, uh, uh, missions had a 301 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:51.960 command, a command module pilot. 302 00:11:52.130 --> 00:11:54.160 Uh, as you said, Michael Collins was the one 303 00:11:54.160 --> 00:11:56.240 for Apollo 11. But I think you're also right 304 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:58.870 that the orbit that Apollo 11 was uh, 305 00:11:59.040 --> 00:12:01.540 in was further out from the moon's surface. 306 00:12:01.540 --> 00:12:04.380 Andrew Dunkley: Then that's how I understand it. However, 307 00:12:04.380 --> 00:12:05.890 the difference with this one is every, uh, 308 00:12:06.100 --> 00:12:08.300 other mission we've sent to the moon has had 309 00:12:08.300 --> 00:12:10.100 three astronauts. This has got four. 310 00:12:10.420 --> 00:12:10.980 Professor Fred Watson: Yes. 311 00:12:11.630 --> 00:12:12.660 Andrew Dunkley: Um, so that's a first. 312 00:12:12.980 --> 00:12:14.820 Professor Fred Watson: Yep, it is. That's. That's right. That's a 313 00:12:14.820 --> 00:12:17.780 big first. New technology. It's a much 314 00:12:17.780 --> 00:12:20.580 more spacious capsule, the Orion capsule, 315 00:12:20.590 --> 00:12:23.300 uh, which I think, uh, will 316 00:12:24.180 --> 00:12:26.900 really be, um. It'll be luxury 317 00:12:27.060 --> 00:12:29.620 compared with. With the Apollo. 318 00:12:29.830 --> 00:12:30.870 Apollo capsules. 319 00:12:31.030 --> 00:12:33.450 Andrew Dunkley: I imagine so. And we wish them well. Uh, 320 00:12:33.450 --> 00:12:36.130 three representatives of NASA and one, uh, 321 00:12:36.130 --> 00:12:39.030 Jeremy Hansen from the Canadian Space Agency. 322 00:12:39.030 --> 00:12:41.870 So that's. That's pretty good too. Ah, we'll 323 00:12:41.870 --> 00:12:43.550 watch with interest. And as you said, 324 00:12:43.550 --> 00:12:45.190 Fred Watson, all the gear is ready to go. 325 00:12:45.190 --> 00:12:47.430 This, uh, space launch system, the Orion 326 00:12:47.430 --> 00:12:49.350 capsule, which had a couple of glitches 327 00:12:49.350 --> 00:12:51.390 coming back to Earth, uh, on Artemis 1. 328 00:12:51.390 --> 00:12:53.430 They've fixed that. I think it overheated. 329 00:12:53.940 --> 00:12:56.230 Uh, and a few other things that they've 330 00:12:56.230 --> 00:12:59.160 sorted out. So they're good to go. So, um. 331 00:12:59.290 --> 00:13:01.050 Yeah, just waiting for the right. Right 332 00:13:01.050 --> 00:13:03.680 weather and the right data to set off. So, 333 00:13:03.680 --> 00:13:06.210 um, yes, there'll be more to talk about as we 334 00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:09.050 get into the early months of 2026 335 00:13:10.010 --> 00:13:12.930 for the Artemis 2 launch. This 336 00:13:12.930 --> 00:13:14.810 is Space Nuts. Andrew Dunkley. Oh, if you 337 00:13:14.810 --> 00:13:16.770 want to read about that, of course, uh, it's 338 00:13:16.770 --> 00:13:19.050 everywhere but BBC, uh, dot com has a good 339 00:13:19.050 --> 00:13:19.930 story about it. 340 00:13:22.490 --> 00:13:24.730 Generic: Three, two, one. 341 00:13:25.210 --> 00:13:26.590 Andrew Dunkley: Straight Space nuts. 342 00:13:26.670 --> 00:13:28.830 Now we'll keep the introduction to this one, 343 00:13:28.830 --> 00:13:30.710 fairly short. Could we have discovered a 344 00:13:30.710 --> 00:13:31.790 wormhole, Fred Watson? 345 00:13:32.520 --> 00:13:34.590 Professor Fred Watson: Um, that's the usual answer. 346 00:13:35.150 --> 00:13:35.790 Maybe. 347 00:13:36.830 --> 00:13:37.710 Andrew Dunkley: I knew it. 348 00:13:39.230 --> 00:13:42.110 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, maybe. Um, so what we're 349 00:13:42.110 --> 00:13:44.830 talking about is a gravitational 350 00:13:44.830 --> 00:13:47.830 wave signal. Excuse me, a 351 00:13:47.830 --> 00:13:50.110 slight frog in my throat there. Not a geordie 352 00:13:50.110 --> 00:13:53.010 in my throat, just a frog. Um, it's 353 00:13:53.010 --> 00:13:55.250 one that was recorded back in 2019. 354 00:13:55.810 --> 00:13:58.810 So, uh, we've had access, ah, to 355 00:13:58.810 --> 00:14:01.050 the gravitational wave sky, if I can put it 356 00:14:01.050 --> 00:14:03.970 that way, for 10 years now. And in fact, 357 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:06.770 um, the first gravitational wave 358 00:14:06.770 --> 00:14:09.090 signal was uh, on the 359 00:14:09.330 --> 00:14:12.010 14th of September, 2015, Marnie's 360 00:14:12.010 --> 00:14:14.450 birthday, as it happens. Uh, so the 361 00:14:14.530 --> 00:14:17.010 LIGO people, the large Interferometric. 362 00:14:17.420 --> 00:14:20.180 Sorry, a Laser Interferometric Gravitational 363 00:14:20.180 --> 00:14:22.700 Wave Observatory, uh, they 364 00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:25.140 have been celebrating their 10th anniversary 365 00:14:25.140 --> 00:14:28.140 since operations came in. Um, 366 00:14:28.140 --> 00:14:30.940 they have been joined by Virgo, uh, 367 00:14:31.020 --> 00:14:33.780 another gravitational wave observatory. And 368 00:14:33.780 --> 00:14:36.220 since then Kagura, which is in Japan. 369 00:14:36.660 --> 00:14:39.660 Uh, so, um, these, uh, three 370 00:14:39.660 --> 00:14:42.620 facilities are currently routinely 371 00:14:42.910 --> 00:14:45.270 looking at gravitational wave science. 372 00:14:45.270 --> 00:14:47.830 They're seeing exploding or 373 00:14:47.830 --> 00:14:50.150 colliding neutron stars coming in ten a 374 00:14:50.150 --> 00:14:52.910 penny. Um, uh, however, 375 00:14:52.910 --> 00:14:55.070 this, and this goes back to when it was just 376 00:14:55.070 --> 00:14:57.950 LIGO and Virgo. In 2019, there 377 00:14:57.950 --> 00:15:00.190 was a very, very different 378 00:15:01.150 --> 00:15:03.790 gravitational wave event detected 379 00:15:03.870 --> 00:15:06.710 by uh, uh, the 380 00:15:06.710 --> 00:15:08.190 two interferometers. 381 00:15:08.790 --> 00:15:11.690 Um, you and I have spoken 382 00:15:11.690 --> 00:15:14.490 before about the characteristic sound, 383 00:15:15.050 --> 00:15:17.290 uh, because it is in the audio frequency 384 00:15:17.610 --> 00:15:20.050 regime. Characteristic, uh, sound of two 385 00:15:20.050 --> 00:15:22.050 neutron stars colliding or a neutron star and 386 00:15:22.050 --> 00:15:24.530 a black hole or two black holes. It's that 387 00:15:24.530 --> 00:15:27.530 chirp sound. It's uh, 388 00:15:27.530 --> 00:15:30.250 with the frequency increasing as these things 389 00:15:30.250 --> 00:15:32.770 spin together and then just vanishes when 390 00:15:32.770 --> 00:15:35.460 they collide. It's when they undergo what's 391 00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:37.060 called the ring down where the two black 392 00:15:37.060 --> 00:15:39.620 holes actually merge. Yeah, but this one was 393 00:15:39.860 --> 00:15:41.180 nothing like that. And I'm not going to 394 00:15:41.180 --> 00:15:43.100 impersonate what it sounded like, but it was 395 00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:44.020 more of a crack. 396 00:15:44.420 --> 00:15:45.940 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, was it, Was it, Was it. 397 00:15:47.780 --> 00:15:50.780 Professor Fred Watson: No, it could be something completely 398 00:15:50.780 --> 00:15:51.060 different 399 00:15:55.140 --> 00:15:57.100 because I'm sure there's a joke about Uranus 400 00:15:57.100 --> 00:15:58.860 you can make with that, but I'm not, I'm not 401 00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:01.700 even going to go there. So, 402 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:05.060 uh, the, um. Yeah, so it was more of a crack. 403 00:16:05.060 --> 00:16:08.060 It was, it was less than, uh, a tenth 404 00:16:08.060 --> 00:16:10.820 of a second in duration. These normal 405 00:16:10.820 --> 00:16:13.740 signals take a few seconds to build up the 406 00:16:13.740 --> 00:16:16.100 frequency and then they disappear with that, 407 00:16:16.180 --> 00:16:18.900 you know, that chirp. Um, but this 408 00:16:18.900 --> 00:16:21.620 one was over in 10 seconds. 409 00:16:23.060 --> 00:16:26.060 So, um, there has been work done on trying 410 00:16:26.060 --> 00:16:28.870 to explain this. It's got a name. All these 411 00:16:28.870 --> 00:16:31.110 things have a name that starts with GW and 412 00:16:31.110 --> 00:16:33.870 ends with the date spelled backwards. Uh, so 413 00:16:33.870 --> 00:16:36.750 this was GW190521 414 00:16:37.390 --> 00:16:40.270 for the date, which was the 21st of May, 415 00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:43.720 uh, 2019. And, um, 416 00:16:45.310 --> 00:16:47.630 the best interpretation, 417 00:16:48.110 --> 00:16:50.870 which I guess is what you might call the 418 00:16:50.870 --> 00:16:53.430 standard picture, is that. Yes, it is. Two 419 00:16:53.430 --> 00:16:55.390 black hairs. Two black hairs. 420 00:16:55.390 --> 00:16:55.570 Generic: Two. 421 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:56.840 Professor Fred Watson: Two black holes. 422 00:16:57.320 --> 00:16:58.680 Andrew Dunkley: It's about all you've got on your head, 423 00:16:58.680 --> 00:16:59.080 Fred Watson. 424 00:17:01.130 --> 00:17:03.500 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, I'll have to look for the other one. Um, 425 00:17:03.800 --> 00:17:06.680 there's two, uh. Two 426 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:09.320 black holes snaring each other. Not. 427 00:17:09.560 --> 00:17:11.960 Not two black hairs snoring each other. Which 428 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:14.080 is, I think, is what I was going to say. Two 429 00:17:14.080 --> 00:17:16.240 black holes snaring each other. Uh, in 430 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:18.610 passing, I'm reading the account that is, um, 431 00:17:18.610 --> 00:17:21.040 on Science Alert, uh, written by Michelle 432 00:17:21.040 --> 00:17:23.760 Starr, an old friend of Space nuts, uh, with 433 00:17:23.760 --> 00:17:25.980 a name that tells it like it is. Um, 434 00:17:27.089 --> 00:17:29.729 so, uh, that's the standard interpretation. 435 00:17:29.889 --> 00:17:32.209 But there's a new paper that has come 436 00:17:32.849 --> 00:17:35.310 from, um, astronomy, um, 437 00:17:35.329 --> 00:17:37.809 astronomers, physicists actually, 438 00:17:38.390 --> 00:17:40.489 uh, which is what you need to be to do 439 00:17:40.489 --> 00:17:41.969 gravitational waves, I guess. But 440 00:17:41.969 --> 00:17:44.409 astrophysics is probably the real name. A 441 00:17:44.409 --> 00:17:46.689 physicist in China, University of Chinese 442 00:17:47.089 --> 00:17:49.929 Academy of Sciences. Uh, we've seen a new 443 00:17:49.929 --> 00:17:51.969 interpretation which is 444 00:17:52.750 --> 00:17:55.310 that, uh, what this 445 00:17:55.790 --> 00:17:58.190 event depicted was not two 446 00:17:58.670 --> 00:18:01.150 black holes colliding in our 447 00:18:01.150 --> 00:18:03.950 universe, but in another universe. 448 00:18:04.430 --> 00:18:07.110 Whoa. And what we're hearing, or what 449 00:18:07.110 --> 00:18:09.870 we're sensing is the gravitational 450 00:18:09.870 --> 00:18:12.790 disturbance, uh, of an event in 451 00:18:12.790 --> 00:18:15.790 another universe that comes through a 452 00:18:15.790 --> 00:18:18.560 collapsing wormhole that 453 00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:21.020 was, um, basically, um, 454 00:18:21.020 --> 00:18:23.840 formed in the merger and collapsed after 455 00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:24.600 the end of it. 456 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:27.880 Andrew Dunkley: So, um, that's a huge claim. 457 00:18:28.040 --> 00:18:31.040 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, it is, isn't it? So 458 00:18:31.040 --> 00:18:33.800 let me quote from Michel's article, um, in 459 00:18:33.800 --> 00:18:36.320 Science Alert. To be clear, the black hole 460 00:18:36.320 --> 00:18:38.520 collision right here in our own universe is 461 00:18:38.520 --> 00:18:41.120 still the preferred interpretation of the 462 00:18:41.120 --> 00:18:44.000 strange signal. But that preference is not 463 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.660 strong enough to rule out the wormhole 464 00:18:46.660 --> 00:18:49.530 model entirely. Uh, and that's, um, 465 00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:52.260 basically a quote from the. The preprint that 466 00:18:52.260 --> 00:18:54.860 these, um, uh, scientists in, In 467 00:18:54.940 --> 00:18:56.540 China have published. 468 00:18:57.100 --> 00:18:59.900 Um, so it's, 469 00:19:00.540 --> 00:19:02.860 you know, it's, it's. 470 00:19:03.340 --> 00:19:05.740 It's. It's a quite a remarkable thing. 471 00:19:06.120 --> 00:19:08.860 Uh, Michel's article is relatively 472 00:19:08.860 --> 00:19:10.860 short, although there's quite a lot of detail 473 00:19:10.940 --> 00:19:13.740 in there. Uh, but the bottom line 474 00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:16.090 is, you know, if. If it was. 475 00:19:17.050 --> 00:19:19.130 If that was the correct interpretation, 476 00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:20.520 uh, of, uh, 477 00:19:21.050 --> 00:19:23.450 GW190521, 478 00:19:24.060 --> 00:19:26.330 uh, and anything else we found that was like 479 00:19:26.330 --> 00:19:28.570 it. If that was the, uh, the 480 00:19:29.130 --> 00:19:31.690 confirmed interpretation that it was a 481 00:19:31.850 --> 00:19:34.850 temporary wormhole, allowing us to sort of 482 00:19:34.850 --> 00:19:37.850 hear the, uh, the echo of. 483 00:19:38.490 --> 00:19:40.530 Excuse me, I'm gonna sneeze. Andrew. Sorry 484 00:19:40.530 --> 00:19:40.850 about that. 485 00:19:40.850 --> 00:19:42.450 Andrew Dunkley: It's. That Time of the year over here. 486 00:19:42.450 --> 00:19:43.930 Professor Fred Watson: I think that was a, I think that was a 487 00:19:43.930 --> 00:19:46.500 wormhole collapsing. Um, yeah, it 488 00:19:46.500 --> 00:19:48.860 wouldn't, it wouldn't. If you could, if it, 489 00:19:48.860 --> 00:19:50.780 if that was the preferred interpretation, it 490 00:19:50.780 --> 00:19:52.380 wouldn't just suggest that these things 491 00:19:52.540 --> 00:19:55.340 exist. Wormholes have been a feature of 492 00:19:55.820 --> 00:19:58.460 science fiction as well as science writing. 493 00:19:58.460 --> 00:20:00.500 The, the fact that they theoretically could 494 00:20:00.500 --> 00:20:02.820 exist but we've got no evidence of them. Uh, 495 00:20:02.820 --> 00:20:04.900 but what she says is it wouldn't just confirm 496 00:20:04.900 --> 00:20:07.780 the existence of these, these things. Um, it 497 00:20:07.780 --> 00:20:10.660 also gives uh, us a, ah, a new way 498 00:20:10.660 --> 00:20:13.350 of, of investigating their 499 00:20:13.350 --> 00:20:16.350 properties. Um, and you know, that might 500 00:20:17.310 --> 00:20:19.310 lead to a whole new branch of astronomy, 501 00:20:19.310 --> 00:20:21.870 wormhole studies. Well, wouldn't that be 502 00:20:21.870 --> 00:20:22.670 extraordinary? 503 00:20:22.830 --> 00:20:25.220 Andrew Dunkley: It would be, but it also opens up 504 00:20:25.220 --> 00:20:28.190 um, another thing that's only theoretical 505 00:20:29.630 --> 00:20:32.630 multiple universe theory. So if we've 506 00:20:32.630 --> 00:20:35.550 detected the collision of two black holes 507 00:20:35.550 --> 00:20:38.150 in another universe and detected it through 508 00:20:38.150 --> 00:20:40.520 the opening up of a temporary wormhole, I 509 00:20:40.520 --> 00:20:41.720 mean that's a double banger. 510 00:20:42.280 --> 00:20:44.960 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, that is, uh, except that 511 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:47.720 you would need to rule out the possibility 512 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:49.920 that this wormhole was linking two bits of 513 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:52.200 our own universe because 514 00:20:52.600 --> 00:20:55.160 that's one of the things that has been 515 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:57.800 suggested. But maybe the Chinese paper, 516 00:20:58.220 --> 00:21:00.840 uh, actually uh, has ruled that out. I'm not 517 00:21:00.840 --> 00:21:01.840 sure because I haven't looked at the 518 00:21:01.840 --> 00:21:04.280 preprint. Um, but yes, 519 00:21:04.580 --> 00:21:07.190 uh, it is, is really 520 00:21:07.350 --> 00:21:10.310 rather remarkable. Uh, what the 521 00:21:10.380 --> 00:21:13.110 uh, scientists in uh, China have done is 522 00:21:13.750 --> 00:21:16.590 basically modelled what you would get 523 00:21:16.590 --> 00:21:19.350 if you had a gravitational wave signal 524 00:21:19.590 --> 00:21:22.349 from another universe coming 525 00:21:22.349 --> 00:21:25.110 through a wormhole. Um, and they've 526 00:21:25.110 --> 00:21:27.110 modelled that and they've compared that with 527 00:21:27.830 --> 00:21:30.820 this particular event, um, 528 00:21:30.820 --> 00:21:33.240 and uh, reasonably happy that their model 529 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:36.000 actually fits the data. Um, in fact 530 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:38.610 they say um, 531 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:41.840 that uh, you know, it's, it's comparable 532 00:21:41.840 --> 00:21:43.200 with it. I don't think it's as 533 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.960 accurate as the black hole merger 534 00:21:47.360 --> 00:21:49.760 waveform, uh, which is, would be a 535 00:21:49.760 --> 00:21:51.120 conventional view that you've got two black 536 00:21:51.120 --> 00:21:52.920 holes that have merged together in our 537 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:55.760 universe. Um, it's uh, that's 538 00:21:55.760 --> 00:21:58.080 apparently just a very slightly 539 00:21:58.600 --> 00:22:01.240 better fit to the observed signal than their 540 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:03.960 wormhole model. But it's still a 541 00:22:04.040 --> 00:22:06.520 possible scenario. So 542 00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:09.400 uh, I think uh, this 543 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:12.360 will be uh, very 544 00:22:12.360 --> 00:22:15.360 much uh, a pathway 545 00:22:15.360 --> 00:22:18.040 for further investigation of wormholes. 546 00:22:18.360 --> 00:22:21.200 Uh, just generally. Um, so what 547 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.200 should we expect if wormholes do exist? What 548 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:24.880 should we expect? It's not, it's all very 549 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:26.800 well just talking about space worms I 550 00:22:26.800 --> 00:22:27.320 imagine. 551 00:22:29.870 --> 00:22:31.430 Yeah. Well there you go. You can, I think you 552 00:22:31.430 --> 00:22:33.150 can get um, tablets for those. 553 00:22:35.500 --> 00:22:38.430 Uh, anyway, um, it's, yes, it's, 554 00:22:38.430 --> 00:22:40.830 it's a really interesting piece of work 555 00:22:41.390 --> 00:22:43.870 obviously. Uh, quite controversial, 556 00:22:44.110 --> 00:22:46.990 quite attention grabbing, headline grabbing. 557 00:22:46.990 --> 00:22:47.550 Generic: Yeah. 558 00:22:47.710 --> 00:22:49.790 Professor Fred Watson: And um, I'm gonna have a look at the 559 00:22:49.790 --> 00:22:51.510 preprint, which I haven't had time to look at 560 00:22:51.510 --> 00:22:53.630 yet. In fact I'm clicking on the link now. 561 00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:56.370 Uh, and it's, it takes me to A paper called 562 00:22:56.370 --> 00:22:59.250 IS GW 190521 A Gravitational 563 00:22:59.250 --> 00:23:01.730 Wave Echo of a Wormhole Remnant from Another 564 00:23:01.730 --> 00:23:04.050 Universe. What a great title. 565 00:23:04.290 --> 00:23:06.610 Andrew Dunkley: That is a great title. And uh, hopefully it's 566 00:23:06.610 --> 00:23:08.890 true. I think that'd be great. Uh, it would 567 00:23:08.890 --> 00:23:11.209 give us something new to study and we might 568 00:23:11.209 --> 00:23:14.090 even work out how to create our own wormholes 569 00:23:14.090 --> 00:23:16.410 and travel long distances at the blink of an 570 00:23:16.410 --> 00:23:16.730 eye. 571 00:23:16.730 --> 00:23:17.810 Professor Fred Watson: Wouldn't that be great? 572 00:23:17.890 --> 00:23:18.930 Andrew Dunkley: Wouldn't it be awesome? 573 00:23:19.170 --> 00:23:21.050 Professor Fred Watson: Yes. We had a little certainly get you. 574 00:23:21.050 --> 00:23:21.970 Andrew Dunkley: Out of jury duty. 575 00:23:24.650 --> 00:23:26.730 Professor Fred Watson: Not necessarily. Because if you're in the 576 00:23:26.730 --> 00:23:28.970 other side of the world they'd write to you 577 00:23:28.970 --> 00:23:30.050 and say look, you've just got to use your 578 00:23:30.050 --> 00:23:31.130 wormhole machine and. 579 00:23:31.210 --> 00:23:33.890 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, well, yeah, that's a possibility. All 580 00:23:33.890 --> 00:23:36.010 this exciting stuff. Uh, if you'd like to 581 00:23:36.010 --> 00:23:37.850 read about that, you can do that at the 582 00:23:37.850 --> 00:23:40.570 Science Alert website, sciencealert.com 583 00:23:40.570 --> 00:23:43.410 and read Michelle's article. Or you can go to 584 00:23:43.410 --> 00:23:45.610 the source, the preprint server on 585 00:23:45.850 --> 00:23:48.610 archive. This is Space Nuts with 586 00:23:48.610 --> 00:23:50.490 Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson 587 00:23:50.490 --> 00:23:51.130 Watson. 588 00:23:53.530 --> 00:23:55.410 Generic: 0G and I feel fine. 589 00:23:55.410 --> 00:23:57.850 Andrew Dunkley: Space Nuts, our final story. 590 00:23:58.090 --> 00:24:00.810 Fred Watson, uh, takes us uh, into space 591 00:24:00.890 --> 00:24:03.850 to see something very rare indeed. An 592 00:24:03.850 --> 00:24:06.650 Einstein cross has been spotted. 593 00:24:07.370 --> 00:24:09.730 Uh, X marks the spot and they drew a circle 594 00:24:09.730 --> 00:24:10.330 around it. 595 00:24:11.610 --> 00:24:14.170 Professor Fred Watson: Well that's kind of what you have to do. Yes, 596 00:24:14.690 --> 00:24:17.610 uh, in uh, this case, uh, the observations of 597 00:24:17.610 --> 00:24:19.450 the Einstein cross weren't made with visible 598 00:24:19.450 --> 00:24:21.690 light telescopes or infrared telescopes, 599 00:24:22.320 --> 00:24:25.160 but with our old friend alma, the Atacama 600 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:27.200 Large Millimetre Submillimeter Array, which 601 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:29.730 we're more used to seeing, uh, 602 00:24:29.760 --> 00:24:32.560 connected to images of protoplanetary discs 603 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:35.520 and a high frequency radio radiation 604 00:24:35.520 --> 00:24:38.239 from protoplanetary discs is something 605 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:41.200 that is very much the stocking trade of alma. 606 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:44.000 But now they've been observing, I mean they 607 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.360 do observe galaxies as well. What they've 608 00:24:46.360 --> 00:24:49.070 observed is an Einstein cross. 609 00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:52.030 This is usually uh, it's 610 00:24:52.030 --> 00:24:54.990 four images of one object in a shape a 611 00:24:54.990 --> 00:24:57.010 little bit like the Southern Cross in our, 612 00:24:57.010 --> 00:24:59.150 ah, Southern Hemisphere sky, 613 00:24:59.730 --> 00:25:02.350 um, which are all images of the same 614 00:25:02.350 --> 00:25:05.190 object. Uh, but there's 615 00:25:05.190 --> 00:25:06.950 something intervening, there's something 616 00:25:06.950 --> 00:25:09.710 between them that creates a gravitational 617 00:25:09.710 --> 00:25:12.350 lens, uh, that separates, 618 00:25:12.430 --> 00:25:14.830 splits the light coming from the distant 619 00:25:14.830 --> 00:25:17.220 object. And uh, as it passes through the 620 00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:19.650 gravitational lens in the foreground, uh, 621 00:25:19.650 --> 00:25:22.340 it's split into four components forming a 622 00:25:22.340 --> 00:25:25.060 cross the reason why this one is particularly 623 00:25:25.060 --> 00:25:27.620 rare is that it has a central image as well. 624 00:25:27.620 --> 00:25:30.060 It's a five image 625 00:25:30.060 --> 00:25:31.979 Einstein cross. And I think there's only one 626 00:25:31.979 --> 00:25:34.730 other one that is actually known, uh, 627 00:25:34.740 --> 00:25:37.620 with gravitational uh, lensing. Um, and 628 00:25:37.620 --> 00:25:40.330 so uh, yeah the story is that um, 629 00:25:41.060 --> 00:25:42.920 this object, uh, 630 00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:46.560 the Einstein cross is the 631 00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:49.960 multiple images of a uh, 632 00:25:50.080 --> 00:25:52.800 background galaxy, uh, known as 633 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:55.720 hers three or her S3. 634 00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:58.560 Probably her S3. Um, that's 635 00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.600 a uh, galaxy which is 11.6 billion 636 00:26:01.600 --> 00:26:03.240 light years away. So we've got a look back 637 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.720 time of 1.6 billion years. Well on the way to 638 00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:08.160 the beginning of the universe. Yes. And 639 00:26:09.030 --> 00:26:11.830 it's gone past uh, a group of 640 00:26:11.830 --> 00:26:14.710 galaxies, a sort of 641 00:26:14.710 --> 00:26:17.630 cluster of galaxies uh, which are in 642 00:26:17.630 --> 00:26:20.350 the foreground and ah, they're only 7.8 643 00:26:20.350 --> 00:26:23.070 billion light years from us, which is still a 644 00:26:23.070 --> 00:26:25.750 staggering distance. But that is the gravity 645 00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:29.030 uh, source that is bending the space and 646 00:26:29.030 --> 00:26:31.620 forming these multiple images. Uh, 647 00:26:31.830 --> 00:26:34.670 and so um, it tells us 648 00:26:34.670 --> 00:26:36.590 about both objects, it tells us about the 649 00:26:36.590 --> 00:26:39.120 distant galaxy of which this is a, a uh, 650 00:26:39.230 --> 00:26:41.310 multiple image. It tells us about the 651 00:26:41.630 --> 00:26:44.430 distribution of matter in the foreground 652 00:26:44.430 --> 00:26:46.590 galaxy cluster. And the really interesting 653 00:26:46.670 --> 00:26:49.620 thing is that what they've shown uh, 654 00:26:49.620 --> 00:26:51.630 the scientists who've done this work, 655 00:26:52.110 --> 00:26:54.750 um, it's ah, a Parisian 656 00:26:54.910 --> 00:26:57.670 group based in Paris, uh, or the leader 657 00:26:57.670 --> 00:27:00.590 is um, based in Paris. Uh, 658 00:27:00.590 --> 00:27:02.750 what they've shown is that the 659 00:27:03.390 --> 00:27:06.260 sort of centre of mass of the 660 00:27:06.260 --> 00:27:09.100 galaxy cluster is not, 661 00:27:09.100 --> 00:27:12.020 is off to one side of where the galaxies 662 00:27:12.020 --> 00:27:14.500 are. And that in itself is 663 00:27:14.580 --> 00:27:17.300 peculiar because we interpret that as saying 664 00:27:17.700 --> 00:27:19.980 that the most of the mass in this cluster is 665 00:27:19.980 --> 00:27:22.860 in the form of dark matter. Uh and it's the 666 00:27:22.860 --> 00:27:25.460 dark matter clump uh, that is kind of 667 00:27:25.460 --> 00:27:27.700 offset from the galaxies that we can see. 668 00:27:27.700 --> 00:27:30.340 That's not um, unique. There are other 669 00:27:30.500 --> 00:27:33.190 circumstances like that in the 670 00:27:33.190 --> 00:27:35.310 universe but this is quite unusual that you 671 00:27:35.310 --> 00:27:37.950 know we've got an Einstein cross created by 672 00:27:38.190 --> 00:27:40.750 a cluster of galaxies whose centre of mass, 673 00:27:40.750 --> 00:27:43.150 if I can put it that way, is off to one side 674 00:27:43.550 --> 00:27:45.270 because of the distribution of dark matter 675 00:27:45.270 --> 00:27:45.870 around it. 676 00:27:46.030 --> 00:27:48.990 Andrew Dunkley: Fascinating. I suppose it also begs the 677 00:27:48.990 --> 00:27:51.270 question that uh, we're looking at the same 678 00:27:51.270 --> 00:27:53.870 thing in five different timelines. 679 00:27:54.590 --> 00:27:57.470 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. And that actually adds 680 00:27:58.170 --> 00:28:00.510 uh, something really interesting to this. Um, 681 00:28:01.130 --> 00:28:03.160 uh, and certainly in the early days of 682 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:05.880 these kinds of observations, Einstein 683 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.760 crosses. And it goes back actually to the 684 00:28:07.760 --> 00:28:10.240 1970s. I remember when the first double 685 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:12.120 quasars were being observed and they're 686 00:28:12.120 --> 00:28:13.680 formed by a similar process. There's 687 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:16.200 something in between the quasar and yourself. 688 00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.440 The quasars are kind of delinquent galaxy, 689 00:28:18.780 --> 00:28:21.660 uh, that's multiplying the image. Um, 690 00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:24.530 there's a, um, a quote from, 691 00:28:24.620 --> 00:28:27.010 uh, Tanu Dylan, 692 00:28:27.170 --> 00:28:30.010 who's at Washington University in St. 693 00:28:30.010 --> 00:28:32.850 Louis, wasn't, uh, involved in this research. 694 00:28:33.250 --> 00:28:35.850 But a very nice quote that says the 695 00:28:35.850 --> 00:28:37.970 magnification may allow 696 00:28:38.210 --> 00:28:41.090 unusually detailed studies of 697 00:28:41.090 --> 00:28:44.090 a star burst galaxy at redshift 698 00:28:44.090 --> 00:28:46.930 3. And that's redshift 3 is 699 00:28:46.930 --> 00:28:49.330 what tells you it's, uh, that far away. 700 00:28:49.330 --> 00:28:52.280 11.5 billion years, light years, 701 00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:54.400 uh, when the universe was less than a fifth 702 00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:57.120 of its current age, including its gas, star 703 00:28:57.120 --> 00:28:59.880 formation and possible outflows. 704 00:29:00.120 --> 00:29:02.680 And what you really need, 705 00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:05.560 um, is some visible 706 00:29:05.560 --> 00:29:08.040 variation in the 707 00:29:08.520 --> 00:29:10.960 light of the source 708 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:13.400 galaxy because the light path, 709 00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:16.440 uh, to form each of these five individual 710 00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:19.300 images of that object is different. And 711 00:29:19.300 --> 00:29:21.700 so you expect these to be 712 00:29:21.700 --> 00:29:24.620 delayed. Uh, and in fact, that was the 713 00:29:24.620 --> 00:29:26.580 thing about the double quasars. You could see 714 00:29:26.740 --> 00:29:29.460 variability in an object which 715 00:29:29.780 --> 00:29:32.740 was mimicked by the second 716 00:29:33.140 --> 00:29:35.500 image of it. This is how we knew that there 717 00:29:35.500 --> 00:29:37.580 were two images of the same thing back in the 718 00:29:37.580 --> 00:29:40.380 day. Uh, uh, an object would get brighter, 719 00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:43.060 the quasar would get brighter, and there'd be 720 00:29:43.060 --> 00:29:45.340 a delay between one image and the other. If 721 00:29:45.340 --> 00:29:47.260 you could do that with five images, then you 722 00:29:47.260 --> 00:29:49.880 can learn an awful lot. Um, there is another 723 00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:51.920 quote, uh, from one of the investigators. 724 00:29:52.320 --> 00:29:54.960 Usually people use quasars, 725 00:29:55.570 --> 00:29:58.400 uh, for this purpose of time 726 00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:00.880 delay, uh, since they 727 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:03.720 naturally vary, uh, very 728 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:06.400 rapidly as a function of time. But, 729 00:30:06.630 --> 00:30:08.800 uh, uh, her, uh, s. 730 00:30:09.430 --> 00:30:11.440 Uh three is star forming, 731 00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:14.200 raising the prospect of detecting a 732 00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:17.150 supernova, uh, whose light would arrive 733 00:30:17.150 --> 00:30:19.190 at each image at different times, giving the 734 00:30:19.190 --> 00:30:21.550 time delay. And from that you can actually 735 00:30:22.270 --> 00:30:24.910 work out what the Hubble constant is. And the 736 00:30:24.910 --> 00:30:27.710 Hubble constant is still, uh, a topic of 737 00:30:27.710 --> 00:30:29.430 discussion. We've talked about the Hubble 738 00:30:29.430 --> 00:30:31.830 tension several times. This will give us 739 00:30:31.830 --> 00:30:33.270 another way of measuring that, and that will 740 00:30:33.270 --> 00:30:34.030 be very interesting. 741 00:30:35.230 --> 00:30:37.510 Andrew Dunkley: That would indeed be quite exciting. Gee, 742 00:30:37.510 --> 00:30:39.190 we've covered some really interesting stories 743 00:30:39.190 --> 00:30:41.390 today, Fred Watson, haven't we? Just if you'd 744 00:30:41.390 --> 00:30:43.780 like to read more about that particular 745 00:30:43.940 --> 00:30:45.540 Einstein cross story, you can do 746 00:30:45.540 --> 00:30:48.460 it@skyandtelescope.org or you 747 00:30:48.460 --> 00:30:51.340 can read the, uh, full paper which has 748 00:30:51.340 --> 00:30:53.780 been published in the Astrophysical Journal. 749 00:30:55.050 --> 00:30:57.540 Uh, we are just about done, Fred Watson. 750 00:30:57.540 --> 00:31:00.030 Before we finish, I might just direct, uh, 751 00:31:00.420 --> 00:31:03.020 people to the Space Nuts podcast group. This 752 00:31:03.020 --> 00:31:05.980 is a Facebook page that was created 753 00:31:05.980 --> 00:31:08.660 by our audience and has, 754 00:31:08.770 --> 00:31:11.290 uh, quite a few thousand people. Uh, 755 00:31:11.340 --> 00:31:14.260 2.7 is 20, uh, 700 756 00:31:14.260 --> 00:31:17.100 members. It's got now, um, people who 757 00:31:17.180 --> 00:31:19.500 discuss, uh, science and 758 00:31:19.740 --> 00:31:22.380 astronomy together, publish stories that, 759 00:31:22.430 --> 00:31:24.980 uh, they are interested in, um, ask 760 00:31:24.980 --> 00:31:27.740 questions of each other, try to solve all the 761 00:31:27.740 --> 00:31:30.060 mysteries of the universe. Uh, it's a great 762 00:31:30.060 --> 00:31:32.380 little group, so if you'd like to join, it's 763 00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:35.020 Facebook. Uh, um, yes, the Space 764 00:31:35.180 --> 00:31:37.820 Nuts podcast group. That's what you've got to 765 00:31:37.820 --> 00:31:39.550 put in your Facebook search engines. Uh, 766 00:31:39.550 --> 00:31:41.460 Space Nuts page podcast group. There's also 767 00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:44.220 an official Space Nuts Facebook group if you 768 00:31:44.220 --> 00:31:45.940 want to join that as well. I think it's got 769 00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:47.860 around, um, about the same number of members. 770 00:31:47.860 --> 00:31:50.180 Probably all the same people. Very likely, 771 00:31:50.730 --> 00:31:52.180 um, quite a few of them anyway. 772 00:31:52.180 --> 00:31:54.380 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I'm sure that's right. I am. I'll check 773 00:31:54.380 --> 00:31:56.820 that out. I'm not a big Facebook 774 00:31:56.980 --> 00:31:59.980 user, but once in a while I go online. I have 775 00:31:59.980 --> 00:32:02.660 to first of all find out once again what my 776 00:32:02.660 --> 00:32:04.940 password is because it keeps, seems to keep 777 00:32:04.940 --> 00:32:07.700 getting changed. So, um, I'll get into 778 00:32:07.700 --> 00:32:10.440 Facebook, um, or Face Ache as I call it. It's 779 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:13.050 what my dad used to call me. Yeah, um, 780 00:32:13.050 --> 00:32:15.600 Facebook. Um, and have a look at SpaceNuts 781 00:32:15.600 --> 00:32:17.680 podcast group and see what they're saying. 782 00:32:17.760 --> 00:32:19.320 Andrew Dunkley: And I've got a shout out to our 783 00:32:19.320 --> 00:32:21.560 administrators who do a great job of keeping 784 00:32:21.560 --> 00:32:24.439 it all in ship shape condition. So thank you, 785 00:32:24.439 --> 00:32:26.360 Paul, thank you Misty, and thank you Steve 786 00:32:26.360 --> 00:32:29.160 and everybody else who's involved. There's a, 787 00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:31.120 there's a few people who look after it for us 788 00:32:31.120 --> 00:32:33.960 voluntarily too, I might say. Um, so, 789 00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:36.230 yeah, excellent, Fred Watson, we're done. 790 00:32:36.230 --> 00:32:37.390 Thank you very, very much. 791 00:32:37.630 --> 00:32:39.550 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, it's a pleasure and good to see you 792 00:32:39.550 --> 00:32:41.630 again, Andrew. And we'll talk again very 793 00:32:41.630 --> 00:32:42.350 soon, I think. 794 00:32:42.510 --> 00:32:43.550 Andrew Dunkley: Very soon, I expect. 795 00:32:43.550 --> 00:32:44.030 Professor Fred Watson: Yes. 796 00:32:44.590 --> 00:32:46.270 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer 797 00:32:46.270 --> 00:32:47.910 at large. And thanks to Huw in the studio, 798 00:32:47.910 --> 00:32:50.070 who couldn't be with us today. His, uh, his 799 00:32:50.070 --> 00:32:52.950 dog Einstein was naughty. He's very cross 800 00:32:52.950 --> 00:32:53.950 with Einstein. 801 00:32:53.950 --> 00:32:55.790 Professor Fred Watson: Oh, geez. 802 00:32:56.030 --> 00:32:57.710 Andrew Dunkley: And from me, Andrew Dunkley, thanks for your 803 00:32:57.710 --> 00:32:59.940 company. Catch you on the next episode as 804 00:32:59.940 --> 00:33:01.200 well. Space Nuts. Bye Bye. 805 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:04.440 Voice Over Guy: You've been listening to the Space Nuts 806 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.440 podcast, available at 807 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:09.440 Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 808 00:33:09.600 --> 00:33:12.360 iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast 809 00:33:12.360 --> 00:33:14.080 player. You can also stream on 810 00:33:14.080 --> 00:33:17.040 demand at bitesz.com This has been another 811 00:33:17.040 --> 00:33:19.970 quality podcast production from bitesz.com