WEBVTT 0 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:02.880 Andrew Dunkley: Hello there. Thanks for joining us on Space 1 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:05.680 Nuts, where we talk astronomy and space 2 00:00:05.680 --> 00:00:07.840 science and sometimes canines. 3 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.600 And coming up in this 4 00:00:11.600 --> 00:00:14.590 episode, does anybody really know what time 5 00:00:14.590 --> 00:00:17.310 it is on Mars? Well, 6 00:00:17.310 --> 00:00:19.110 apparently they've worked out a way, and it's 7 00:00:19.110 --> 00:00:21.390 really fascinating. And there's a good reason 8 00:00:21.390 --> 00:00:23.830 for it, too. We're also going to talk about 9 00:00:23.830 --> 00:00:26.110 the weird orbit of TOI 10 00:00:26.190 --> 00:00:29.100 3884B. I 11 00:00:29.100 --> 00:00:31.860 was only there last week. And chewing gum on 12 00:00:31.860 --> 00:00:34.740 Asteroids. It's a thing. That's all coming 13 00:00:34.740 --> 00:00:37.380 up on this episode of space nuts. 14 00:00:37.540 --> 00:00:40.020 Voice Over Guy: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 15 00:00:40.260 --> 00:00:42.900 10, 9, ignition 16 00:00:42.900 --> 00:00:45.864 sequence. Star space nuts. 5, 4, 3, 17 00:00:45.936 --> 00:00:48.744 2, 1, 2, 3. 4, 5, 5, 4, 18 00:00:48.816 --> 00:00:51.140 3, 2', 1. Space nuts. 19 00:00:51.140 --> 00:00:52.980 Astronauts report it feels good. 20 00:00:53.540 --> 00:00:54.500 Andrew Dunkley: And he's back again. 21 00:00:54.740 --> 00:00:57.020 For more, here's Professor Fred Watson, 22 00:00:57.020 --> 00:00:58.820 astronomer at large. Hello, Fred. 23 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:01.360 Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. Complete with the dog. 24 00:01:01.440 --> 00:01:03.940 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, yes. good old Jordy. 25 00:01:04.420 --> 00:01:07.140 He's great value. I still laugh at 26 00:01:07.220 --> 00:01:09.060 the way he greeted us when we went to your 27 00:01:09.060 --> 00:01:10.980 place a month or so back and 28 00:01:12.020 --> 00:01:13.620 came tearing down the stairs. 29 00:01:14.660 --> 00:01:17.060 Professor Fred Watson: That's right. That's it. But that's his, 30 00:01:17.460 --> 00:01:20.460 modus operandi. Yes, it is. And it's 31 00:01:20.460 --> 00:01:23.230 not aggressive. It's just, exciting. 32 00:01:23.230 --> 00:01:25.830 Hello, how are you? But it just goes beside 33 00:01:25.830 --> 00:01:26.670 himself when. 34 00:01:27.870 --> 00:01:28.070 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. 35 00:01:28.070 --> 00:01:29.630 Professor Fred Watson: Anyway, he's already had a session this 36 00:01:29.630 --> 00:01:31.630 morning, standing at the bottom of our stairs 37 00:01:31.870 --> 00:01:33.750 yelling at something, and I have no idea what 38 00:01:33.750 --> 00:01:34.190 it was. 39 00:01:34.350 --> 00:01:36.070 Andrew Dunkley: Probably a blade of grass that got. 40 00:01:36.070 --> 00:01:38.630 Professor Fred Watson: Blown in the weed. Yeah, yeah. That's the 41 00:01:38.630 --> 00:01:41.430 level at which he gets excited. Absolutely. 42 00:01:41.430 --> 00:01:42.590 Oh, blade of grass. 43 00:01:43.710 --> 00:01:44.990 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. I love it. 44 00:01:45.710 --> 00:01:48.440 Okay, we have got some really interesting 45 00:01:48.440 --> 00:01:50.080 topics today. We've always got interesting 46 00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:52.080 topics, but this is a really great 47 00:01:52.080 --> 00:01:54.530 combination. we're talking time, weird 48 00:01:54.530 --> 00:01:57.300 orbits, and chewing gum. let's start 49 00:01:57.300 --> 00:02:00.120 on mar. and to quote the famous 50 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:02.240 song, does anybody really know what time it 51 00:02:02.240 --> 00:02:05.080 is? Mars is a 52 00:02:05.080 --> 00:02:07.000 bit of a problem when it comes to time. And 53 00:02:07.080 --> 00:02:10.040 so is the moon to a certain degree, because 54 00:02:10.920 --> 00:02:13.440 time doesn't run the same way in those places 55 00:02:13.440 --> 00:02:16.280 as it does on Earth. And going forward, that 56 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:18.280 could become an issue because we're going to 57 00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:21.240 ultimately spend time on Mars, 58 00:02:22.030 --> 00:02:24.590 wandering around growing potatoes. But, 59 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:27.480 we need to be able to get the time right. 60 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:31.890 Professor Fred Watson: We do. and, I mean, there are some 61 00:02:32.210 --> 00:02:34.170 sort of basic facts before you get into the 62 00:02:34.170 --> 00:02:37.120 nitty gritty, which include the 63 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:39.880 fact that a day on Mars is 40 64 00:02:39.880 --> 00:02:42.180 minutes longer than a day on Earth. So, 65 00:02:42.920 --> 00:02:45.760 about 24 hours and 40 minutes. And of course, 66 00:02:45.760 --> 00:02:48.510 a year on Mars is longer, too. It's, 600 and 67 00:02:48.510 --> 00:02:51.430 something days of our days. 687, 68 00:02:51.900 --> 00:02:54.460 is the length of time a Martian year. 69 00:02:55.230 --> 00:02:57.790 So they're the easy 70 00:02:57.790 --> 00:03:00.670 bits, they're the givens. But if 71 00:03:00.670 --> 00:03:03.150 you're trying to synchronize your 72 00:03:03.230 --> 00:03:05.700 clocks, between Earth and Mars, 73 00:03:06.020 --> 00:03:08.960 and this is kind of already happening, with 74 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:11.430 the rovers, the fact that the rovers are 75 00:03:11.430 --> 00:03:13.460 actually controlled from Earth. But, because 76 00:03:13.460 --> 00:03:15.860 of the time delay for signals to get to Mars, 77 00:03:17.060 --> 00:03:19.500 there's a degree of autonomy in all the 78 00:03:19.500 --> 00:03:22.140 rovers that are roving on Mars. That's not 79 00:03:22.140 --> 00:03:24.260 the issue at the moment. The issue is how you 80 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:27.460 make your clocks on Earth agree, with clocks 81 00:03:27.460 --> 00:03:29.850 on Mars. And there's two subtleties, 82 00:03:30.480 --> 00:03:32.950 that come into this. And I should, credit the 83 00:03:32.950 --> 00:03:34.670 organization that's done the work on this, 84 00:03:34.670 --> 00:03:37.590 which is the United States National Institute 85 00:03:37.590 --> 00:03:39.750 of Standards and Technology, or nist. 86 00:03:40.430 --> 00:03:43.270 they've actually done detailed calculations, 87 00:03:43.690 --> 00:03:46.030 about exactly how time 88 00:03:46.350 --> 00:03:49.150 varies on Mars. And so you've got two 89 00:03:49.150 --> 00:03:50.910 things, Andrew, when you're trying to 90 00:03:50.910 --> 00:03:52.790 synchronize with clocks on Earth, apart from 91 00:03:52.790 --> 00:03:55.290 the time, you know, the time 92 00:03:55.290 --> 00:03:57.770 delay with signals going to Mars, 93 00:03:58.170 --> 00:04:01.070 the two things that come into being both are, 94 00:04:01.050 --> 00:04:03.570 to do with Einstein's theories of 95 00:04:03.570 --> 00:04:06.490 relativity. and we've talked about these 96 00:04:06.570 --> 00:04:09.369 ad infinitum. We've gone on about them 97 00:04:09.369 --> 00:04:12.240 a lot for a long time. and you from that 98 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:14.890 will know that, when you put a clock into a 99 00:04:14.890 --> 00:04:17.280 gravitational field, it runs slower. and 100 00:04:17.280 --> 00:04:19.920 that's the time dilation effect of general 101 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:22.890 relativity. So we know that, clocks 102 00:04:22.890 --> 00:04:25.370 on the surface of the Earth run slightly 103 00:04:25.370 --> 00:04:28.330 slower than clocks either in space or even in 104 00:04:28.330 --> 00:04:30.850 the air. We've now got clocks that are so 105 00:04:30.850 --> 00:04:33.050 accurate you can tell the difference between 106 00:04:33.610 --> 00:04:36.410 time ticking away on a jet plane at 10 km 107 00:04:36.410 --> 00:04:38.850 high and time ticking away on the surface of 108 00:04:38.850 --> 00:04:41.810 the Earth. But Mars, of course, also has 109 00:04:41.810 --> 00:04:43.700 a gravitational field. It's got a 110 00:04:43.700 --> 00:04:46.590 gravitational pull, but it's only a sixth or 111 00:04:46.590 --> 00:04:49.070 thereabouts of what we have here on our 112 00:04:49.070 --> 00:04:51.950 planet. So that means because the 113 00:04:51.950 --> 00:04:54.590 gravity is lower, a clock runs 114 00:04:54.590 --> 00:04:57.030 faster on the surface of Mars. 115 00:04:57.460 --> 00:04:59.500 if you're on Mars, your clock is ticking away 116 00:04:59.500 --> 00:05:02.260 at the same rate, but to an outside observer 117 00:05:03.220 --> 00:05:06.010 it runs, slower. And to an observer on the 118 00:05:06.010 --> 00:05:08.610 Earth whose clocks are running even slower, 119 00:05:09.090 --> 00:05:11.650 it seems to be running faster. And the 120 00:05:11.650 --> 00:05:14.370 calculation has been that from the 121 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:16.440 nist, the National Institute of Standards and 122 00:05:16.440 --> 00:05:18.880 Technology, a clock on Mars would run 123 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:21.600 477 microseconds 124 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:24.920 faster per day compared with a clock 125 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:27.840 on the earth. So 477 millionths of a 126 00:05:27.840 --> 00:05:30.480 second doesn't actually sound much except 127 00:05:30.960 --> 00:05:32.960 that when you've got communications, 128 00:05:33.760 --> 00:05:36.490 like the 5G network you're working to, 129 00:05:36.650 --> 00:05:38.970 you know, the internal clocks work to better 130 00:05:38.970 --> 00:05:41.790 than a millionth of a second. and 131 00:05:41.790 --> 00:05:44.630 so 477 of those millionths of a second is 132 00:05:45.430 --> 00:05:48.230 yes, throwing messy M messy 133 00:05:48.230 --> 00:05:50.790 indeed. But it actually gets messier 134 00:05:51.030 --> 00:05:54.000 because as you know, we've talked 135 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:56.150 about this too. the special theory of 136 00:05:56.150 --> 00:05:59.120 relativity says that if you have a clock 137 00:05:59.760 --> 00:06:02.160 on a moving object and you observe it from 138 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:05.460 not a moving object, then you will 139 00:06:05.460 --> 00:06:07.820 also get time dilation. That clock will look 140 00:06:07.820 --> 00:06:09.700 as though it's going slower even though it's 141 00:06:09.700 --> 00:06:11.690 ticking away at the same rate to the person 142 00:06:11.690 --> 00:06:14.250 who's on the moving object. To an outside 143 00:06:14.330 --> 00:06:16.530 observer who's stationary, it looks as though 144 00:06:16.530 --> 00:06:19.530 it's going slower. And so we've got an 145 00:06:19.530 --> 00:06:22.330 effect because of the motion of Mars 146 00:06:22.890 --> 00:06:25.370 relative to the motion of Earth. Now Mars is 147 00:06:25.450 --> 00:06:27.730 in an orbit around the sun just like we are, 148 00:06:27.730 --> 00:06:30.370 but it's actually quite an eccentric orbit. 149 00:06:30.370 --> 00:06:32.450 In other words, it's rather elongated, more 150 00:06:32.450 --> 00:06:35.090 so than Earth's orbit is. And so that means 151 00:06:35.810 --> 00:06:38.410 it's always got a motion towards or away from 152 00:06:38.410 --> 00:06:40.280 the Earth. And that adds another 153 00:06:40.520 --> 00:06:43.260 uncertainty, which can go 154 00:06:43.260 --> 00:06:45.300 either way because if it's coming towards us 155 00:06:45.300 --> 00:06:47.930 then you get a different effect. it's 156 00:06:47.930 --> 00:06:50.090 226 microseconds, 157 00:06:50.820 --> 00:06:53.790 the daily offset, in the course 158 00:06:53.790 --> 00:06:56.470 of a Martian year the 159 00:06:56.470 --> 00:06:58.550 difference between us and there, and 160 00:06:59.890 --> 00:07:01.890 I just said something that I want to correct 161 00:07:01.890 --> 00:07:04.790 there because the thing is always the same 162 00:07:05.110 --> 00:07:06.650 sign, it doesn't matter of whether it's going 163 00:07:06.650 --> 00:07:09.160 towards us or away from us. you've still got 164 00:07:09.400 --> 00:07:12.200 the offset in terms of the 165 00:07:12.280 --> 00:07:15.210 relativistic time dilation, which is 166 00:07:15.210 --> 00:07:17.490 not what I said, so I'm correcting that now. 167 00:07:18.170 --> 00:07:20.510 but yeah, so you've got this additional 226 168 00:07:20.510 --> 00:07:23.190 microseconds, so 477 169 00:07:23.190 --> 00:07:25.480 microseconds, with up to 170 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:28.400 226 microseconds added to that. It 171 00:07:28.400 --> 00:07:31.000 means you've got actually quite a messy 172 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:33.760 difference in time. It's almost a thousandth 173 00:07:33.760 --> 00:07:34.280 of a second. 174 00:07:34.580 --> 00:07:37.380 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, this relates to a 175 00:07:37.380 --> 00:07:40.040 time where we've got long term human 176 00:07:40.340 --> 00:07:43.100 presence on Mars and we need to, 177 00:07:43.180 --> 00:07:45.700 and the technology doesn't exist yet, but we 178 00:07:45.700 --> 00:07:48.540 need to be able to communicate with Earth 179 00:07:48.540 --> 00:07:51.260 in real time. Technically they're going 180 00:07:51.260 --> 00:07:54.130 to probably develop ways of setting up 181 00:07:54.080 --> 00:07:57.070 communication systems so that the 182 00:07:57.070 --> 00:07:59.840 radio signal issue doesn't 183 00:07:59.810 --> 00:08:01.790 impinge on that communication. Because at the 184 00:08:01.790 --> 00:08:04.550 moment it's like, what, 24 minutes 185 00:08:04.550 --> 00:08:05.670 to send in. 186 00:08:05.670 --> 00:08:07.830 Professor Fred Watson: I think at maximum, it can be. Yeah. And 187 00:08:08.630 --> 00:08:10.110 you're not going to be able to get away from 188 00:08:10.110 --> 00:08:12.430 that. But you can build that in because, you 189 00:08:12.430 --> 00:08:15.150 know, Mars is distance very precisely. Yeah. 190 00:08:15.150 --> 00:08:17.110 So you can build in a time delay. 191 00:08:17.590 --> 00:08:20.510 Andrew Dunkley: So this is more about working out 192 00:08:20.510 --> 00:08:22.710 a time system 193 00:08:23.350 --> 00:08:26.270 that is in sync with Earth. Does 194 00:08:26.270 --> 00:08:29.240 that mean we have to invent a new kind of 195 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:31.760 clock to use on Mars? So that it's. 196 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:35.520 Professor Fred Watson: I think, what it means, it's really about 197 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:39.360 the internal consistency of time signals 198 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:41.040 on Mars. So, 199 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:45.960 you're absolutely right. The synchronization 200 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:48.360 with Earth comes into play here. 201 00:08:48.920 --> 00:08:51.800 But you also want to make sure that 202 00:08:51.800 --> 00:08:54.670 your communication's actually on Mars, which 203 00:08:54.670 --> 00:08:57.620 would be vital. are. All right. And that's, 204 00:08:57.860 --> 00:09:00.660 in a way, okay. Because the 205 00:09:00.660 --> 00:09:03.140 relativistic effects don't come in there 206 00:09:03.540 --> 00:09:05.660 because you're all in the same gravity and 207 00:09:05.660 --> 00:09:08.430 you're all basically moving, on a planet at 208 00:09:08.430 --> 00:09:10.910 the same speed. It's like, we don't have to 209 00:09:10.910 --> 00:09:12.830 take these effects into consideration when 210 00:09:12.830 --> 00:09:15.150 we're talking between ourselves on the 211 00:09:15.150 --> 00:09:17.030 surface of the Earth. It's only when you're 212 00:09:17.030 --> 00:09:19.630 talking up to satellites above the Earth, 213 00:09:19.640 --> 00:09:21.500 which we do through GPS and through 214 00:09:21.500 --> 00:09:23.380 communications, then you need to take those 215 00:09:23.780 --> 00:09:26.400 minute differences into account. And 216 00:09:26.800 --> 00:09:29.040 in a sense, that's what this is all about. 217 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:32.160 So, you know, you've got the basic property 218 00:09:32.160 --> 00:09:33.880 that you can't get away from the speed of 219 00:09:33.880 --> 00:09:35.960 light, 300,000 kilometers per second. That's, 220 00:09:35.910 --> 00:09:38.550 the speed at which radio signals go to and 221 00:09:38.550 --> 00:09:41.240 from Mars. that you can deal with because we 222 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:43.560 know the distance. But then on top of that, 223 00:09:43.560 --> 00:09:46.480 you've got this added tweak in 224 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:48.520 terms of synchronizing our clocks with the 225 00:09:48.520 --> 00:09:51.240 clocks on Mars, which makes for a very 226 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:53.480 interesting, you know, a very interesting 227 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:54.960 scenario. yeah. 228 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:56.960 Andrew Dunkley: Well, here's a dumb question. Why can't we 229 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:59.920 just do what we do on Earth across 230 00:10:00.160 --> 00:10:02.480 the entire solar system and use 231 00:10:02.800 --> 00:10:05.440 Zulu time? Would that not work? 232 00:10:11.640 --> 00:10:14.480 Andrew Dunkley: Just Zulu time on Earth basically means it's 233 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.160 the same time everywhere on the planet. 234 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:18.840 Professor Fred Watson: That's an expression I haven't heard before, 235 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:19.120 actually. 236 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:22.050 Andrew Dunkley: Oh, it's. It's a real thing. Is it Zulu time? 237 00:10:22.050 --> 00:10:24.010 Yeah, it's used by the military, 238 00:10:24.010 --> 00:10:24.570 specifically. 239 00:10:24.570 --> 00:10:26.650 Professor Fred Watson: But, yeah, that might be why, I heard of it. 240 00:10:26.810 --> 00:10:29.220 Andrew Dunkley: I'll look it up. because right now it's set 241 00:10:29.220 --> 00:10:31.540 on, Greenwich Mean Time. But, you know, Zulu 242 00:10:31.540 --> 00:10:34.100 time applies across the entire planet. 243 00:10:34.180 --> 00:10:36.900 Professor Fred Watson: So that's what we would call Universal 244 00:10:36.900 --> 00:10:37.220 time. 245 00:10:37.220 --> 00:10:38.700 Same thing in the world of astronomy. 246 00:10:38.700 --> 00:10:41.220 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah. Why can't we do that? 247 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:44.330 Professor Fred Watson: well, we do. I mean, you know, we do in 248 00:10:44.330 --> 00:10:47.190 space, but that's fine. That 249 00:10:47.190 --> 00:10:49.070 gives you a time base, but 250 00:10:49.950 --> 00:10:51.710 you've got to tweak it for all these 251 00:10:52.030 --> 00:10:53.390 relativistic differences. 252 00:10:53.550 --> 00:10:55.070 Andrew Dunkley: So you've got the time slip problem 253 00:10:55.070 --> 00:10:56.790 regardless of how you run the clock. 254 00:10:56.790 --> 00:10:58.150 Professor Fred Watson: It doesn't matter how you run the clock. 255 00:10:58.150 --> 00:11:01.070 Yeah. So if you're on 256 00:11:01.630 --> 00:11:03.790 one of the moons of Uranus, then 257 00:11:04.990 --> 00:11:07.110 you'd probably still work on Universal time 258 00:11:07.110 --> 00:11:08.190 or Zulu time. 259 00:11:09.730 --> 00:11:11.850 But when you synchronize that with Earth, 260 00:11:11.850 --> 00:11:13.130 you've got to take all these things into 261 00:11:13.130 --> 00:11:15.170 consideration. And that's the bottom line. 262 00:11:15.170 --> 00:11:17.550 Andrew Dunkley: Okay, I get it. Gosh, it's so complicated 263 00:11:18.030 --> 00:11:20.830 and yet, you know, Mars is as close to Earth 264 00:11:20.830 --> 00:11:22.590 as you probably going to find in another 265 00:11:22.590 --> 00:11:25.110 planet. The daytime 266 00:11:25.510 --> 00:11:28.270 difference is only 40 minutes. But when 267 00:11:28.270 --> 00:11:30.790 we actually set up 268 00:11:31.430 --> 00:11:34.310 long term stays on Mars, that in 269 00:11:34.310 --> 00:11:36.390 itself is going to be a problem for humans 270 00:11:36.390 --> 00:11:39.350 because we are tuned to our own environment. 271 00:11:40.470 --> 00:11:42.590 Having an extra 40 minutes a day is going to 272 00:11:42.590 --> 00:11:45.520 throw everything into a, into a spear. And 273 00:11:45.520 --> 00:11:47.280 I think we talked about this some time ago 274 00:11:47.280 --> 00:11:49.280 and the only way around it would be, 275 00:11:50.490 --> 00:11:52.570 you have to have a daytime snooze. 276 00:11:53.530 --> 00:11:56.410 Professor Fred Watson: Well, we kind of know about this already 277 00:11:56.410 --> 00:11:58.320 because and again we've talked about this 278 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.720 before that the people who actually operate, 279 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.530 perseverance and curiosity and all the other 280 00:12:03.530 --> 00:12:06.430 rovers that are on Mars, the 281 00:12:06.430 --> 00:12:08.070 ones that, the only other one that's 282 00:12:08.070 --> 00:12:09.510 operational is the Chinese one. 283 00:12:11.140 --> 00:12:13.380 the people who operate those actually change 284 00:12:13.380 --> 00:12:15.820 onto a 24 hours and 40 minute 285 00:12:15.820 --> 00:12:18.700 schedule. So they're isolated 286 00:12:18.700 --> 00:12:21.540 in a sense from their 287 00:12:21.540 --> 00:12:23.820 community and I think they quite quickly 288 00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:25.620 adapt. I think it's a bit rough for the first 289 00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:28.410 few days. It's a bit like jet lag. but 290 00:12:28.410 --> 00:12:30.250 I think they quite quickly adapt to that 291 00:12:30.250 --> 00:12:31.930 longer day, a Martian day. 292 00:12:32.090 --> 00:12:34.610 Andrew Dunkley: So if you start work at 9:00 on a Monday, you 293 00:12:34.610 --> 00:12:36.490 start at 9:40 on Tuesdays. 294 00:12:37.090 --> 00:12:39.130 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. Salami. 295 00:12:39.130 --> 00:12:41.010 Andrew Dunkley: By, by end of the week you've. 296 00:12:41.330 --> 00:12:43.180 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. So, actually it's the other way around, 297 00:12:43.180 --> 00:12:45.860 isn't it? You'd. Yeah. Would it be. Yeah, 298 00:12:45.860 --> 00:12:47.900 you'd have to start earlier by the, by 299 00:12:47.900 --> 00:12:48.220 Monday. 300 00:12:48.620 --> 00:12:51.060 Andrew Dunkley: Well, it's the same as trying to figure out 301 00:12:51.060 --> 00:12:53.420 daylight saving, isn't it just, am I going to 302 00:12:53.420 --> 00:12:54.220 be early or late? 303 00:12:56.060 --> 00:12:58.060 Oh, imagine trying to do that every day. 304 00:12:58.060 --> 00:13:00.630 Gosh, no, it's fascinating. And so 305 00:13:00.710 --> 00:13:03.190 yeah, and the bottom line is that this, this 306 00:13:03.190 --> 00:13:06.190 team has has more or less figured it all 307 00:13:06.190 --> 00:13:08.790 out and worked out what we have to do to make 308 00:13:08.790 --> 00:13:10.670 the time right when we get to Mars. 309 00:13:11.630 --> 00:13:13.310 Professor Fred Watson: You're right. And you, you were right 310 00:13:13.310 --> 00:13:16.150 actually. You would start. So to everybody 311 00:13:16.150 --> 00:13:18.910 else, your day, you'd be starting 40 312 00:13:18.910 --> 00:13:21.860 minutes late Tuesday. but you're 313 00:13:21.860 --> 00:13:24.780 still starting at midnight or you know, 314 00:13:24.780 --> 00:13:27.300 whatever time you, you started. Nine o' clock 315 00:13:27.300 --> 00:13:29.980 in fact. Nine o' clock 316 00:13:29.980 --> 00:13:31.540 Martian time. Yeah, yeah. 317 00:13:31.540 --> 00:13:33.590 Andrew Dunkley: It's just a bit crazy isn't it? But yeah, 318 00:13:33.590 --> 00:13:35.110 it's a fascinating story. If you'd like to 319 00:13:35.110 --> 00:13:37.190 read about it, it's on the website scitech 320 00:13:37.190 --> 00:13:40.190 Daily or you can read the paper that's 321 00:13:40.190 --> 00:13:42.670 been published in the Astronomical Journal. 322 00:13:43.150 --> 00:13:45.870 This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and 323 00:13:45.950 --> 00:13:47.470 Professor Fred Watson. 324 00:13:52.030 --> 00:13:53.070 Space Nuts. 325 00:13:53.310 --> 00:13:56.210 All right, we're going to focus on a target 326 00:13:56.210 --> 00:13:58.870 of interest. Now I only just figured out what 327 00:13:58.870 --> 00:13:59.470 that means. 328 00:13:59.470 --> 00:14:02.030 TOI3884B. 329 00:14:02.430 --> 00:14:05.310 This is a planet orbiting a star. And 330 00:14:05.310 --> 00:14:07.310 at this point in time they've only found this 331 00:14:07.310 --> 00:14:10.190 one planet. But the weird thing is 332 00:14:10.270 --> 00:14:13.070 its orbit is just so out of kilter 333 00:14:13.070 --> 00:14:15.790 with what we would consider normal. And they 334 00:14:15.790 --> 00:14:16.510 don't know why. 335 00:14:17.390 --> 00:14:20.230 Professor Fred Watson: They don't. So you're absolutely right. We're 336 00:14:20.230 --> 00:14:23.230 talking about an object by the name of TOI 337 00:14:23.230 --> 00:14:24.430 3884B. 338 00:14:26.270 --> 00:14:28.930 I was just talking to a radio presenter, 339 00:14:29.250 --> 00:14:31.690 in actually in Coffs Harbour in 340 00:14:33.070 --> 00:14:34.960 northern what's it called? The Mid North 341 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:37.080 Coast? Yeah, New South Wales. 342 00:14:37.880 --> 00:14:40.810 about this very topic, and he wants to 343 00:14:40.810 --> 00:14:43.730 rename it the Hula Hoop. That's a good idea. 344 00:14:43.810 --> 00:14:46.530 Yeah, because as he said, with Hula Hoops the 345 00:14:46.530 --> 00:14:49.110 problem is always keeping the Hula Hoop at 346 00:14:49.110 --> 00:14:52.040 the same angle to your waistline. he said it 347 00:14:52.040 --> 00:14:54.000 tends to wander off and that's exactly what's 348 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:55.160 happened with this planet. 349 00:14:55.160 --> 00:14:57.390 So Luke Ryan, this is one for you. 350 00:14:58.540 --> 00:15:01.450 it's the Hula Hoop, the Hula Hoop planet. so 351 00:15:01.450 --> 00:15:03.850 what's the story? Well this is a, ah, planet 352 00:15:03.850 --> 00:15:06.020 going around a red dwarf star. it's one of 353 00:15:06.020 --> 00:15:08.930 the 7,000 odd now exoplanets 354 00:15:08.930 --> 00:15:11.920 that we know about. it's at a distance of 355 00:15:11.920 --> 00:15:14.900 something like 130 light years 356 00:15:15.460 --> 00:15:18.100 from Earth. This red 357 00:15:18.100 --> 00:15:20.960 dwarf is pretty you 358 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.680 know, unspectacular 359 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.640 in that it's just a typical red dwarf star. 360 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:30.170 But it's got spots on it. Now a lot 361 00:15:30.170 --> 00:15:32.250 of stars we know have spots on it. And 362 00:15:32.250 --> 00:15:34.130 actually here in Australia we've got a group 363 00:15:34.450 --> 00:15:36.650 who I work with quite often up in the 364 00:15:36.650 --> 00:15:38.970 University of Southern Queensland whose 365 00:15:38.970 --> 00:15:41.850 speciality is star spots and understanding 366 00:15:41.850 --> 00:15:44.090 how we can learn about them. And they do, 367 00:15:44.090 --> 00:15:46.330 they. So, you know, I've seen some of the 368 00:15:46.330 --> 00:15:48.210 papers that they've written and sometimes 369 00:15:48.210 --> 00:15:50.300 these star spots, you know, they're almost, 370 00:15:50.380 --> 00:15:52.860 ah, a quarter of the size of the disk of the 371 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:55.660 star itself. Unlike the sunspots that we see, 372 00:15:55.900 --> 00:15:57.780 which are yes, bigger than Earth, many of 373 00:15:57.780 --> 00:15:59.780 them, but the Earth's 100 times smaller than 374 00:15:59.780 --> 00:16:02.270 the sun. So, our sunspots are quite 375 00:16:02.350 --> 00:16:04.590 tiny compared with some of the star spots 376 00:16:04.590 --> 00:16:07.470 that we know exist on other stars. And this 377 00:16:07.470 --> 00:16:10.350 particular, red dwarf has at least one big 378 00:16:10.350 --> 00:16:13.020 spot, which they're cooler than, 379 00:16:13.370 --> 00:16:14.890 the rest of the atmosphere. They're cool 380 00:16:14.890 --> 00:16:17.300 spots and that's why they look darker. and 381 00:16:17.300 --> 00:16:20.260 it's because of that, even though you can't 382 00:16:20.260 --> 00:16:22.420 see the spot directly, what you can see is 383 00:16:22.420 --> 00:16:24.300 the way the light from that star 384 00:16:24.780 --> 00:16:27.500 changes as the star rotates, 385 00:16:28.300 --> 00:16:30.700 bringing the spot towards us. And then on the 386 00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:33.220 other side of the star, when the spot's 387 00:16:33.220 --> 00:16:35.409 towards us, it's a little bit dimmer. And so 388 00:16:35.409 --> 00:16:38.109 what they've done is, these scientists, 389 00:16:38.330 --> 00:16:40.649 and I should acknowledge, where they are. 390 00:16:40.649 --> 00:16:43.579 I'll come to that in a minute. they 391 00:16:43.579 --> 00:16:46.119 have, figured out, first of all 392 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:48.380 from that spot rotation, 393 00:16:49.450 --> 00:16:52.450 they figured out that this planet, sorry, 394 00:16:52.450 --> 00:16:55.210 this star itself rotates every 11 395 00:16:55.930 --> 00:16:58.551 days, which is of course, 396 00:16:59.172 --> 00:17:01.572 shorter than the Sun. It's kind of half the 397 00:17:01.892 --> 00:17:04.852 Sun's rotation. But that 11 days is 398 00:17:04.932 --> 00:17:07.832 the key, to understanding how the 399 00:17:07.832 --> 00:17:10.512 star itself rotates. Now enter the planet 400 00:17:10.512 --> 00:17:12.752 into this. The planet itself 401 00:17:13.152 --> 00:17:15.552 goes around in something like four days. 402 00:17:16.052 --> 00:17:18.772 so it sort of whizzes around the parent star. 403 00:17:19.332 --> 00:17:22.132 but what the scientists have done 404 00:17:22.532 --> 00:17:25.512 is used some very, very careful 405 00:17:25.672 --> 00:17:28.552 measurements and a phenomenon which is 406 00:17:28.552 --> 00:17:30.952 called the Rossiter McLachlan effect, 407 00:17:31.872 --> 00:17:34.502 which is to do with the way, 408 00:17:34.782 --> 00:17:37.402 the appearance of a star's spectrum 409 00:17:37.722 --> 00:17:40.682 changes as a planet rotates around 410 00:17:40.922 --> 00:17:43.402 the star or revolves around the star. 411 00:17:43.722 --> 00:17:46.682 And using that effect, they have, 412 00:17:47.682 --> 00:17:50.562 basically discovered that this 413 00:17:51.042 --> 00:17:53.842 planet orbits the star at an 414 00:17:53.842 --> 00:17:56.242 angle of 62 415 00:17:56.242 --> 00:17:59.202 degrees to the star's equator. 416 00:18:00.362 --> 00:18:02.362 and contrast that with the solar system, 417 00:18:02.441 --> 00:18:04.882 where the planets all orbit more or less in 418 00:18:04.882 --> 00:18:07.042 the same plane. Mercury is the outlier in 419 00:18:07.042 --> 00:18:09.092 that it's tilted, but, 420 00:18:10.012 --> 00:18:12.972 that plane is more or less the same as 421 00:18:12.972 --> 00:18:14.892 the, as the equator of the sun. 422 00:18:14.972 --> 00:18:17.052 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. If you compare it to Earth, 423 00:18:17.742 --> 00:18:20.382 that planet's 40 degrees off. We're 424 00:18:20.382 --> 00:18:23.142 23.44 and they're 60. Whatever you 425 00:18:23.142 --> 00:18:24.822 said. that's a heck of a tilt. 426 00:18:25.222 --> 00:18:26.822 Professor Fred Watson: No, it's a different tilt you're talking 427 00:18:26.822 --> 00:18:29.222 about there. Oh, that's the tilt of the 428 00:18:29.222 --> 00:18:31.662 Earth's. Oh, that's the axis rotation axis. 429 00:18:31.662 --> 00:18:32.502 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Right, right. 430 00:18:32.502 --> 00:18:34.912 Professor Fred Watson: But the tilt of the Earth's, orbit to the 431 00:18:34.912 --> 00:18:37.672 sun, to the sun's equator, is effectively 432 00:18:37.672 --> 00:18:38.072 zero. 433 00:18:38.072 --> 00:18:38.682 Andrew Dunkley: Right, Gotcha. 434 00:18:38.682 --> 00:18:40.462 Professor Fred Watson: as. As most of the planets are, with 435 00:18:40.462 --> 00:18:41.022 exception. 436 00:18:41.022 --> 00:18:43.142 Andrew Dunkley: So it's not the tilt. It's the actual orbit 437 00:18:43.142 --> 00:18:43.822 itself is. 438 00:18:43.822 --> 00:18:45.662 Professor Fred Watson: Yep, that's right. It's the orbit itself. 439 00:18:46.462 --> 00:18:48.222 Not. Not the rotation of the planet. That's 440 00:18:48.222 --> 00:18:50.142 right. Good. Good to clarify that. 441 00:18:50.142 --> 00:18:50.502 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. 442 00:18:50.502 --> 00:18:53.442 Professor Fred Watson: Thanks, Andrew. so, yeah, and that's peculiar 443 00:18:53.442 --> 00:18:55.922 because, you know, we. We conventionally 444 00:18:55.922 --> 00:18:58.602 understand that the way planets form is, 445 00:18:58.822 --> 00:19:01.722 in a. In a, what we call a protoplanetary 446 00:19:01.722 --> 00:19:04.472 disk which surrounds the infant 447 00:19:04.472 --> 00:19:07.312 star. And because both 448 00:19:07.312 --> 00:19:09.032 the star and the planets have come from a 449 00:19:09.032 --> 00:19:11.832 collapsing cloud of dust and gas, which is 450 00:19:11.832 --> 00:19:13.912 itself rotating. And it's that sort of 451 00:19:13.912 --> 00:19:16.902 fossilized rotation, that we see in the 452 00:19:16.902 --> 00:19:19.102 rotation of the planets or the revolution of 453 00:19:19.102 --> 00:19:21.662 the planets around the sun and the rotation 454 00:19:21.662 --> 00:19:23.582 of the sun. And they're all in the same 455 00:19:23.662 --> 00:19:26.622 plane. This one's not. So how has 456 00:19:26.622 --> 00:19:29.142 that happened? And the 457 00:19:29.142 --> 00:19:30.062 suggestion is. 458 00:19:30.642 --> 00:19:33.402 Andrew Dunkley: Oh, I know, I know. Theo did 459 00:19:33.402 --> 00:19:33.682 it. 460 00:19:34.482 --> 00:19:37.282 Professor Fred Watson: Well, yeah, that's. It could be a Thea 461 00:19:37.282 --> 00:19:39.242 effect. Something that's. Something that's 462 00:19:39.242 --> 00:19:42.082 actually collided with this object. 463 00:19:42.082 --> 00:19:44.792 But this apparently, as you pointed out right 464 00:19:44.792 --> 00:19:47.112 at the beginning, there isn't another. 465 00:19:47.832 --> 00:19:50.232 There isn't another. There's no other 466 00:19:50.232 --> 00:19:53.042 objects known to be, in orbit around this 467 00:19:53.042 --> 00:19:55.682 star. It seems to be a single planet. 468 00:19:56.082 --> 00:19:57.682 That's not to say that there wasn't something 469 00:19:57.682 --> 00:20:00.342 that collided with it and moved its orbit. 470 00:20:00.982 --> 00:20:02.862 But even, you know, something like Theia 471 00:20:02.862 --> 00:20:04.422 hitting the Earth, which is how we think the 472 00:20:04.422 --> 00:20:06.142 Moon was formed, that didn't push the Earth 473 00:20:06.142 --> 00:20:08.742 out of its orbit until the orbit. It's a very 474 00:20:09.062 --> 00:20:11.782 peculiar effect. I mean, it may be 475 00:20:11.782 --> 00:20:14.342 that this star has had an interaction 476 00:20:14.662 --> 00:20:16.982 gravitationally at some time in the past and 477 00:20:17.862 --> 00:20:20.802 shifted the, orbit of the planet by 478 00:20:20.802 --> 00:20:23.202 the gravitational interference of something 479 00:20:23.202 --> 00:20:25.282 else going past. But that's, 480 00:20:26.192 --> 00:20:28.422 you know, that's just conjecture. and the 481 00:20:28.422 --> 00:20:31.262 bottom line is, for a single planet going 482 00:20:31.262 --> 00:20:33.902 around a star, this is the most peculiar one 483 00:20:33.902 --> 00:20:36.182 we've ever found. It's because of this tilt 484 00:20:36.182 --> 00:20:37.022 in its orbit. 485 00:20:37.262 --> 00:20:40.262 Andrew Dunkley: And that's what we keep seeing every time we 486 00:20:40.262 --> 00:20:42.542 find something new in another solar system, 487 00:20:43.022 --> 00:20:46.022 we Find. Not every time, but 488 00:20:46.022 --> 00:20:48.422 we are, ah, starting to find something new 489 00:20:48.422 --> 00:20:50.542 and different and unexplainable. And, 490 00:20:51.112 --> 00:20:53.312 nothing's normal really when it comes to all 491 00:20:53.312 --> 00:20:54.392 these new discoveries. 492 00:20:55.032 --> 00:20:56.632 Professor Fred Watson: That's correct. That's right. 493 00:21:00.512 --> 00:21:02.672 it's a universe out there that's full of 494 00:21:02.672 --> 00:21:04.872 diversity. That's probably the best way to 495 00:21:04.872 --> 00:21:05.312 put it. 496 00:21:05.552 --> 00:21:08.442 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. and quite a strange 497 00:21:08.442 --> 00:21:11.002 place. Do we know what kind of planet it is? 498 00:21:11.642 --> 00:21:14.372 Professor Fred Watson: yeah, it's a super Earth, I think it's got a 499 00:21:14.372 --> 00:21:16.892 mass of 39 Earths. So it's, something less 500 00:21:16.892 --> 00:21:19.812 than Jupiter. but, but I think it's, not 501 00:21:19.812 --> 00:21:22.372 as big, not as big in diameter as Jupiter is. 502 00:21:22.372 --> 00:21:24.212 I think that's right. But you know, it 503 00:21:24.212 --> 00:21:26.012 probably means it's a hot Jupiter, basically, 504 00:21:26.012 --> 00:21:27.492 or a hot sub Jupiter perhaps. 505 00:21:27.492 --> 00:21:28.732 That's the best way to put it. 506 00:21:28.732 --> 00:21:31.161 Andrew Dunkley: Right. Okay. Well, it's another 507 00:21:31.161 --> 00:21:33.962 interesting find. I'm sure 508 00:21:33.962 --> 00:21:36.002 they'll keep looking at it to try and figure 509 00:21:36.002 --> 00:21:38.772 out how it ended up where it is and why. but 510 00:21:38.772 --> 00:21:41.302 yeah, it sounds. Now, logic, logic, if you 511 00:21:41.302 --> 00:21:43.542 tear it all down, you go with the most 512 00:21:43.542 --> 00:21:46.342 obvious answer. It's probably been hit 513 00:21:46.342 --> 00:21:49.142 by something. Probably Steve Smith's cricket 514 00:21:49.142 --> 00:21:50.622 bat would be my theory. 515 00:21:52.462 --> 00:21:54.692 Professor Fred Watson: I think you've probably just baffled, two 516 00:21:54.692 --> 00:21:55.652 thirds of our listeners. 517 00:21:55.731 --> 00:21:58.532 Andrew Dunkley: Probably look up Steve Smith, cricketer, 518 00:21:58.532 --> 00:21:59.892 and you'll know what I'm talking about. 519 00:22:01.372 --> 00:22:03.692 been having a great season, Absolutely 520 00:22:04.172 --> 00:22:06.992 wonderful season. But I won't gloat because I 521 00:22:06.992 --> 00:22:09.272 know we're heard in England and I, I don't 522 00:22:09.272 --> 00:22:10.752 want to, you know, it's not over yet. 523 00:22:12.122 --> 00:22:13.782 so if you would like to read up on that 524 00:22:13.782 --> 00:22:16.192 story, you can do so@the 525 00:22:16.432 --> 00:22:18.752 dailygalaxy.com website. Or you can read the 526 00:22:18.752 --> 00:22:20.752 paper in the 527 00:22:20.991 --> 00:22:23.192 Astronomical Journal. I think it is. Let me 528 00:22:23.192 --> 00:22:25.632 just double check that. Yes, the Astronomical 529 00:22:25.632 --> 00:22:28.312 Journal. This is Space Nuts with Andrew 530 00:22:28.312 --> 00:22:30.592 Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson. 531 00:22:33.462 --> 00:22:35.462 Roger, you're live right here. Also Space 532 00:22:35.542 --> 00:22:36.182 Nuts. 533 00:22:36.262 --> 00:22:39.142 Our last story is about 534 00:22:39.222 --> 00:22:41.262 one of my favorite things, and that is 535 00:22:41.262 --> 00:22:43.332 chewing gum. I grew up on that stuff. I 536 00:22:43.332 --> 00:22:45.092 didn't eat food. I just chewed gum 537 00:22:46.052 --> 00:22:48.692 ad infinitum. I, I used to 538 00:22:49.172 --> 00:22:51.372 stick it on the bedpost when I went to sleep 539 00:22:51.372 --> 00:22:54.052 and start again as soon as I woke up. I just 540 00:22:54.212 --> 00:22:56.892 was addicted to this stuff. Especially the 541 00:22:56.892 --> 00:22:58.772 stuff we had called Big Charlie. I don't know 542 00:22:58.772 --> 00:23:00.652 if anyone remembers Big Charlie, but it came 543 00:23:00.652 --> 00:23:02.812 in a stick about one foot long 544 00:23:04.092 --> 00:23:06.412 and good. Yeah, it was amazing. 545 00:23:06.572 --> 00:23:09.452 Anyway, I can't find that anymore. the 546 00:23:09.452 --> 00:23:11.732 point I'm trying to make is that this is all 547 00:23:11.732 --> 00:23:14.332 about a discovery that's been made on the 548 00:23:14.332 --> 00:23:16.772 samples of the Bennu 549 00:23:16.772 --> 00:23:19.532 asteroid that were returned to Earth in the 550 00:23:19.532 --> 00:23:21.572 deserts of Utah a couple of years ago. And 551 00:23:21.572 --> 00:23:23.692 they've been sort of looking at it ever since 552 00:23:23.692 --> 00:23:26.052 and they have found something 553 00:23:26.892 --> 00:23:29.532 unusual. It's not chewing gum, but it is like 554 00:23:29.532 --> 00:23:32.482 chewing gum because, it's 555 00:23:32.482 --> 00:23:32.602 a. 556 00:23:32.602 --> 00:23:33.602 Professor Fred Watson: Kind of a polymer. 557 00:23:35.522 --> 00:23:37.682 Yeah. I'm still grappling with you and 558 00:23:38.502 --> 00:23:41.382 your chewing gum on the BET post m. 559 00:23:41.462 --> 00:23:44.022 If I remember rightly, it was Lonnie Donegan 560 00:23:44.662 --> 00:23:47.542 who in the 1950s had a big hit 561 00:23:47.542 --> 00:23:49.902 with does your chewing gum lose its flavor in 562 00:23:49.902 --> 00:23:51.142 the bedpost overnight? 563 00:23:51.222 --> 00:23:52.162 Andrew Dunkley: The answer is yes. 564 00:23:54.392 --> 00:23:57.232 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, so straight from there 565 00:23:57.232 --> 00:23:58.472 to Asteroid Bennu. 566 00:24:00.662 --> 00:24:02.442 I think it was Lonnie Donegan anyway. 567 00:24:02.442 --> 00:24:03.962 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I can't remember, but I know. 568 00:24:03.962 --> 00:24:06.082 Professor Fred Watson: The race skiffle artist of the 569 00:24:06.082 --> 00:24:07.002 1950s. 570 00:24:08.642 --> 00:24:11.602 Andrew Dunkley: there's a photo of Big Charlie. I don't know 571 00:24:11.602 --> 00:24:12.882 if you can see that now. You can't. 572 00:24:12.882 --> 00:24:14.762 Professor Fred Watson: I can't. No. It's just disappearing because 573 00:24:14.762 --> 00:24:16.322 you. All I can see now is the moon. 574 00:24:16.402 --> 00:24:18.622 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Anyway. 575 00:24:18.622 --> 00:24:20.662 Professor Fred Watson: A Big Charlie. We did Charlie. 576 00:24:21.822 --> 00:24:23.622 Ah, lucky one. 577 00:24:23.942 --> 00:24:26.542 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it was a monster packet. Like, you 578 00:24:26.542 --> 00:24:29.302 know, you couldn't put it in your pocket. 579 00:24:29.702 --> 00:24:30.982 You'd poke a m out. 580 00:24:34.822 --> 00:24:37.162 Professor Fred Watson: Well, I have to say, it's something 581 00:24:38.042 --> 00:24:40.602 not at all like that that we're talking about 582 00:24:40.682 --> 00:24:43.322 with asteroid Bennu because all these 583 00:24:43.322 --> 00:24:45.152 observations have made. Been made with an 584 00:24:45.152 --> 00:24:47.392 electron microscope, which you probably 585 00:24:47.392 --> 00:24:49.792 didn't need for a Big Charlie. but 586 00:24:50.272 --> 00:24:53.202 what's it all about? It's what's 587 00:24:53.202 --> 00:24:55.682 been found in the dust, 588 00:24:56.542 --> 00:24:59.222 which was returned by the Osiris Rex 589 00:24:59.222 --> 00:25:01.502 spacecraft, I think in 590 00:25:01.502 --> 00:25:04.342 2023, if I remember rightly. Samples from 591 00:25:04.342 --> 00:25:06.302 asteroid Bennu. It's a NASA project. 592 00:25:07.062 --> 00:25:09.532 what has been found in there is what the 593 00:25:09.532 --> 00:25:11.662 scientists call nitrogen rich 594 00:25:11.742 --> 00:25:13.022 polymeric sheets, 595 00:25:14.392 --> 00:25:17.392 which you and I would call gum. It's a 596 00:25:17.392 --> 00:25:19.402 polymer basically. and 597 00:25:19.882 --> 00:25:22.172 polymers, ah, are materials where you've got 598 00:25:22.172 --> 00:25:24.212 these long chains of molecules that 599 00:25:24.931 --> 00:25:27.412 give them that sort of flexible and sticky, 600 00:25:27.732 --> 00:25:30.342 sticky flavor. or not flavor, but, 601 00:25:30.332 --> 00:25:33.332 demeanor, let me put it that way. so 602 00:25:33.332 --> 00:25:35.912 it's. Yeah, it's got it's got 603 00:25:36.292 --> 00:25:39.172 these long chain molecules on it. And so the 604 00:25:39.252 --> 00:25:42.202 scientists are calling it space gum. it's 605 00:25:42.202 --> 00:25:44.642 not gum as we would know it. But what they've 606 00:25:44.642 --> 00:25:47.422 done is, they've found, sort of 607 00:25:47.422 --> 00:25:50.222 almost like shards of this stuff within the 608 00:25:50.222 --> 00:25:52.382 dust samples from 609 00:25:52.702 --> 00:25:55.382 Bennu. And in order to analyze it, 610 00:25:55.382 --> 00:25:57.982 they've actually had to coat it with a 611 00:25:58.062 --> 00:26:00.992 layer of I think it's 612 00:26:00.992 --> 00:26:03.832 platinum. Yeah. That 613 00:26:03.832 --> 00:26:06.472 they've. They've reinforced it with so that 614 00:26:06.472 --> 00:26:09.042 they can take samples from it, with a 615 00:26:09.122 --> 00:26:11.782 tungsten micro needle. and you see 616 00:26:11.782 --> 00:26:13.582 pictures of all this stuff going on on the 617 00:26:13.582 --> 00:26:15.622 Web. The Universe Today's got a nice story 618 00:26:15.622 --> 00:26:17.802 about it. and, 619 00:26:18.272 --> 00:26:21.192 then with the microneedle, then you can 620 00:26:21.192 --> 00:26:23.192 take the samples and, you know, analyze them. 621 00:26:23.192 --> 00:26:25.392 With all the various pieces of kit that 622 00:26:25.872 --> 00:26:28.272 we use to make these analyses. 623 00:26:29.182 --> 00:26:31.552 And it turns out, yep, there's, There's gum 624 00:26:31.552 --> 00:26:34.282 there. I think the puzzle is 625 00:26:34.442 --> 00:26:36.472 how it got there. because. 626 00:26:37.592 --> 00:26:40.322 Well, let me just, since we're mentioning 627 00:26:40.322 --> 00:26:43.042 Universe Today and the lovely article, 628 00:26:43.352 --> 00:26:46.152 by Andy Thomas Twick, I think is his name, 629 00:26:46.152 --> 00:26:48.412 might not be how you pronounce it. But, 630 00:26:48.782 --> 00:26:51.252 what, he says is. One question remains. 631 00:26:51.492 --> 00:26:53.692 One question remains. How exactly did the 632 00:26:53.692 --> 00:26:56.592 space Gump survive on Bennu for so long? We 633 00:26:56.592 --> 00:26:58.752 know that Bennu was part of a larger asteroid 634 00:26:58.752 --> 00:27:00.392 that had hydrothermal vents. 635 00:27:01.432 --> 00:27:03.872 Meaning the asteroid itself was subjected to 636 00:27:03.872 --> 00:27:06.672 water. Complex organic molecules like the 637 00:27:06.672 --> 00:27:09.392 space gum. Usually either dissolve or 638 00:27:09.392 --> 00:27:11.672 break up when subjected to hot water. 639 00:27:12.232 --> 00:27:14.232 So how had this particular sample, 640 00:27:14.732 --> 00:27:17.662 avoided that fate? And what 641 00:27:17.742 --> 00:27:20.462 they're saying then is that perhaps the 642 00:27:20.702 --> 00:27:22.942 sample might have formed, basically 643 00:27:23.502 --> 00:27:26.222 during a phase when Bennu was 644 00:27:26.302 --> 00:27:29.022 cold. Before it actually got hot enough for 645 00:27:29.262 --> 00:27:31.182 nuclear processes to heat it up. 646 00:27:32.002 --> 00:27:34.162 and they're saying that these samples 647 00:27:34.162 --> 00:27:36.812 actually date from that time. and that 648 00:27:36.971 --> 00:27:39.712 basically, what they say 649 00:27:39.712 --> 00:27:42.512 is, By the time radioactive elements inside 650 00:27:42.512 --> 00:27:45.232 the asteroid. And this again is quoted from 651 00:27:45.232 --> 00:27:47.512 Universe, today, by the time the radioactive 652 00:27:47.512 --> 00:27:49.392 elements inside the asteroid had heated up 653 00:27:49.392 --> 00:27:51.862 enough to create the water, the plastic in 654 00:27:51.862 --> 00:27:54.302 inverted commas, sheets of polymer were 655 00:27:54.302 --> 00:27:56.702 already formed and were, in fact, water 656 00:27:56.702 --> 00:27:58.782 resistant, thereby getting trapped by the 657 00:27:58.782 --> 00:28:01.022 rocks on the asteroid surface. Where they 658 00:28:01.022 --> 00:28:03.502 were eventually picked up by an intrepid 659 00:28:03.502 --> 00:28:05.762 space probe, namely Osiris, 660 00:28:06.212 --> 00:28:08.932 Rex. So, yeah, and here's the really 661 00:28:08.932 --> 00:28:11.252 interesting bit. we've got other 662 00:28:11.332 --> 00:28:14.142 asteroid samples, as you know, Andrew, 663 00:28:14.142 --> 00:28:17.092 from, the two Japanese spacecraft that have 664 00:28:17.092 --> 00:28:19.572 brought back asteroid samples. and 665 00:28:19.732 --> 00:28:22.292 neither of those have polymers in them. 666 00:28:22.872 --> 00:28:24.902 so, Bennu is different. It's a different, 667 00:28:25.582 --> 00:28:28.072 body. It's still a rubble pile asteroid, as 668 00:28:28.072 --> 00:28:30.712 far as we know, but different in its chemical 669 00:28:30.712 --> 00:28:31.232 makeup. 670 00:28:31.232 --> 00:28:33.632 Andrew Dunkley: So I suppose that throws up questions about, 671 00:28:33.952 --> 00:28:36.922 asteroid formation and why this 672 00:28:36.922 --> 00:28:39.122 is different. Or is it. Is it normal and the 673 00:28:39.122 --> 00:28:41.002 other two were different? You don't know, do 674 00:28:41.002 --> 00:28:41.162 you? 675 00:28:41.162 --> 00:28:42.962 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. That's the thing. Yes. 676 00:28:43.402 --> 00:28:43.722 Yeah. 677 00:28:43.722 --> 00:28:45.572 Andrew Dunkley: Very interesting indeed. If, you'd like to 678 00:28:45.572 --> 00:28:48.412 read about it. Universetoday.com has 679 00:28:48.412 --> 00:28:50.922 that great article that, Fred was talking 680 00:28:50.922 --> 00:28:53.532 about. And, yeah, we'll probably learn more 681 00:28:53.532 --> 00:28:55.252 and more as they keep going through those 682 00:28:55.252 --> 00:28:56.692 samples from Bennu. 683 00:28:58.172 --> 00:29:00.482 Fred, we're, we're all done. Thank you so 684 00:29:00.482 --> 00:29:01.242 much. That was quick. 685 00:29:01.962 --> 00:29:04.962 Professor Fred Watson: It was, wasn't it? M. And they were. They 686 00:29:04.962 --> 00:29:07.642 were quite complex stories as well. Yeah. 687 00:29:07.642 --> 00:29:09.282 Andrew Dunkley: Probably why we didn't spend much time on 688 00:29:09.282 --> 00:29:11.082 them. Brains. 689 00:29:11.082 --> 00:29:12.762 Professor Fred Watson: Neither of us understands them either. 690 00:29:14.572 --> 00:29:14.972 Yeah. 691 00:29:15.052 --> 00:29:16.642 Andrew Dunkley: All right, thanks, Fred. We'll, catch you 692 00:29:16.642 --> 00:29:19.482 shortly, for our final 693 00:29:19.482 --> 00:29:22.442 program of the year officially. So we'll see 694 00:29:22.442 --> 00:29:23.442 you then. Thanks, Fred. 695 00:29:23.762 --> 00:29:24.442 Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great. 696 00:29:24.442 --> 00:29:25.522 Well done, Andrew. 697 00:29:25.762 --> 00:29:28.162 Andrew Dunkley: And, thanks to Huw in the studio who couldn't 698 00:29:28.162 --> 00:29:30.372 be with us today because of a weird, object 699 00:29:30.612 --> 00:29:33.072 that, he's gone to see the Doctor about. and 700 00:29:33.072 --> 00:29:35.802 don't forget to visit us online. And, you can 701 00:29:35.802 --> 00:29:38.722 do that@spacenutspodcast.com or 702 00:29:38.722 --> 00:29:41.562 spacenuts.com and, 703 00:29:41.742 --> 00:29:44.052 check it all out there. You can, go to our 704 00:29:44.052 --> 00:29:46.172 supporters page if you would like to learn 705 00:29:46.172 --> 00:29:48.292 more about how to support us in whatever way 706 00:29:48.292 --> 00:29:50.012 you feel fit. You don't have to. 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