WEBVTT 0 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:04.920 Andrew Dunkley: Hello again. Thank you for joining us. This 1 00:00:04.920 --> 00:00:07.400 is Space Nuts where we talk astronomy and 2 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:10.240 space science. My name is Andrew Dunkley. 3 00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:12.000 Great to have your company. Well, you've 4 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:14.640 probably been listening to Jonty for the last 5 00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:17.360 few weeks with Fred Watson, uh, overseas 6 00:00:17.360 --> 00:00:19.320 gallivanting as he does. He loves to 7 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:21.040 gallivant. And 8 00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:24.440 he's back. And what we're going to talk about 9 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:26.920 today, uh, all sorts of things. A, uh, blue 10 00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:29.000 origin blowout. You've probably seen the 11 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:31.910 footage. Wow. Uh, primordial black hole, 12 00:00:32.220 --> 00:00:34.940 gravitational micro lensing and is dark 13 00:00:34.940 --> 00:00:37.780 matter A. Ah, Furphy. We'll deal with all of 14 00:00:37.780 --> 00:00:39.740 that today on Space nuts. 15 00:00:39.980 --> 00:00:42.380 Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 16 00:00:42.620 --> 00:00:45.340 10, 9. Ignition 17 00:00:45.340 --> 00:00:46.300 sequence start. 18 00:00:46.460 --> 00:00:47.186 Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts. 19 00:00:47.258 --> 00:00:50.087 Generic: 5, 4, 3, 2. 1. 2, 3, 4, 20 00:00:50.160 --> 00:00:52.300 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. 21 00:00:52.380 --> 00:00:53.500 Andrew Dunkley: Space nuts. 22 00:00:53.580 --> 00:00:55.420 Generic: Astronauts report it feels good. 23 00:00:56.780 --> 00:00:59.780 Andrew Dunkley: And he's back and he's looking well. It's 24 00:00:59.780 --> 00:01:01.700 Professor Fred Watson Watson, Astronomer at 25 00:01:01.700 --> 00:01:02.780 large. Hello, Fred Watson. 26 00:01:03.020 --> 00:01:04.920 Professor Fred Watson: Hello Andre. You're looking well too. It's 27 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:05.680 nice to see you. 28 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:08.020 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it's good to see you too. I mean uh, 29 00:01:08.020 --> 00:01:10.040 it's been a while for both of us because, 30 00:01:10.360 --> 00:01:13.240 um, we had to do a lot of catch up 31 00:01:13.240 --> 00:01:15.280 episodes but we didn't quite have enough time 32 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:17.400 to cover everything so we brought Jonty in. 33 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:20.440 Uh, but he and I had to do catch up episodes 34 00:01:20.440 --> 00:01:22.840 to cover an absence of mine. 35 00:01:23.160 --> 00:01:25.560 So um, I haven't actually 36 00:01:25.800 --> 00:01:27.640 recorded with you for quite a while. 37 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:30.160 Professor Fred Watson: It's uh. Yeah, it must be a couple of months 38 00:01:30.160 --> 00:01:30.520 or so. 39 00:01:30.520 --> 00:01:32.480 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it would be. But it doesn't sound like 40 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:33.720 that to the audience really. 41 00:01:34.690 --> 00:01:35.410 Professor Fred Watson: No, probably not. 42 00:01:35.410 --> 00:01:37.810 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, it's all witchery. 43 00:01:39.170 --> 00:01:41.330 Well, we. Yeah, I think so. I think so. 44 00:01:41.330 --> 00:01:41.610 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. 45 00:01:41.610 --> 00:01:43.090 Andrew Dunkley: There's at least two or three of them. 46 00:01:43.490 --> 00:01:44.530 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Okay, good. 47 00:01:44.530 --> 00:01:46.210 Andrew Dunkley: So where did you go? 48 00:01:46.770 --> 00:01:49.410 Professor Fred Watson: You were all over the place. Yes. So it was 49 00:01:49.730 --> 00:01:52.730 uh, a conference in Germany that took me up 50 00:01:52.730 --> 00:01:55.490 to Europe and that, that actually was 51 00:01:55.890 --> 00:01:58.890 really interesting, um, because in 52 00:01:58.890 --> 00:02:00.850 fact I was going to Scotland before that. I 53 00:02:00.850 --> 00:02:03.410 had a week with my daughters in Scotland and 54 00:02:03.410 --> 00:02:05.570 then off to Germany. But the trip there, 55 00:02:06.030 --> 00:02:08.470 course, um, we can't fly through the Middle 56 00:02:08.470 --> 00:02:11.310 east at the moment because of the war going 57 00:02:11.310 --> 00:02:13.630 on there. And so my flight 58 00:02:14.990 --> 00:02:17.670 via Dubai, they were long cancelled, but 59 00:02:17.670 --> 00:02:20.270 Mali managed to pull me a flight up to 60 00:02:20.510 --> 00:02:23.270 Seoul in Korea and then 61 00:02:23.270 --> 00:02:26.150 on thin air from Seoul over 62 00:02:26.150 --> 00:02:28.350 the North Pole. And I've actually got a 63 00:02:28.350 --> 00:02:30.750 certificate to prove that I've been over the 64 00:02:30.750 --> 00:02:32.790 North Pole. It's over there. I can't go and 65 00:02:32.790 --> 00:02:34.910 grab it. And then into 66 00:02:35.230 --> 00:02:37.390 Helsinki and then, uh, yes, it was cold. 67 00:02:38.090 --> 00:02:40.730 Then uh, um, uh, across to 68 00:02:40.730 --> 00:02:42.570 Edinburgh. So the Polar Flight was really 69 00:02:42.570 --> 00:02:45.210 interesting because we started off in Seoul 70 00:02:45.210 --> 00:02:48.090 in Korea, uh, and then, you know, 71 00:02:48.090 --> 00:02:50.930 took off, uh, with thin air. And 72 00:02:50.930 --> 00:02:53.690 I expected us to head towards 73 00:02:53.769 --> 00:02:56.690 the, towards the west, because that's what 74 00:02:56.690 --> 00:02:59.450 you do. But no, we headed to the east. 75 00:02:59.530 --> 00:03:02.330 Wow. And we actually went up between 76 00:03:03.050 --> 00:03:05.850 Russia and America, so up the Bering 77 00:03:05.850 --> 00:03:08.690 Strait. So it went far enough 78 00:03:08.690 --> 00:03:10.750 east that you could turn north right up the 79 00:03:10.750 --> 00:03:13.030 Bering Strait. So you got Russia on one side, 80 00:03:13.030 --> 00:03:14.950 America on the other, and then over the North 81 00:03:14.950 --> 00:03:17.790 Pole, uh, with a little polar 82 00:03:17.790 --> 00:03:19.870 certificate to prove it. Nice touchdown in 83 00:03:19.870 --> 00:03:22.790 Helsinki. Yeah. Uh, an hour or so there. Then 84 00:03:22.790 --> 00:03:25.230 a nice flight over to Edinburgh. And I was 85 00:03:25.230 --> 00:03:28.150 with my daughter directly. It was great. 86 00:03:28.310 --> 00:03:31.030 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, fantastic. Um, I've got an Arctic 87 00:03:31.030 --> 00:03:32.870 Circle certificate, I think. 88 00:03:32.870 --> 00:03:34.710 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, you will have. Yeah, I've got one of 89 00:03:34.710 --> 00:03:36.390 those as well. I got a cape certificate in 90 00:03:36.390 --> 00:03:36.630 fact. 91 00:03:36.790 --> 00:03:38.760 Andrew Dunkley: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 92 00:03:38.990 --> 00:03:41.400 Professor Fred Watson: Um, but the conference I went to in Germany, 93 00:03:41.630 --> 00:03:44.440 uh, was, um, it was the 60th birthday 94 00:03:44.440 --> 00:03:46.840 conference of a colleague with whom I've 95 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:49.600 worked very closely on um, the RAVE survey 96 00:03:49.600 --> 00:03:51.200 which we've talked about before. The radial 97 00:03:51.200 --> 00:03:53.640 velocity experiment. Uh, Matthias 98 00:03:53.640 --> 00:03:55.880 Steinmetz. Herr Doctor, Professor Matthias 99 00:03:55.880 --> 00:03:58.760 Steinmetz. Uh, very senior German astronomer 100 00:03:58.760 --> 00:04:01.240 now. He, uh, led the project. I was the 101 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:03.120 project manager. So we worked very closely 102 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:05.880 together with a team of people, most of whom 103 00:04:05.880 --> 00:04:08.200 were at the conference to celebrate his 60th 104 00:04:08.200 --> 00:04:10.720 birthday. So I was the sole Australian 105 00:04:10.720 --> 00:04:12.520 representative. So they made a bit of a fuss 106 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:15.200 of me, which was nice. Uh, I got the 107 00:04:15.200 --> 00:04:18.150 kickoff talk and uh, they looked after me. 108 00:04:18.150 --> 00:04:20.600 Uh, so it was very, very good. And I 109 00:04:20.760 --> 00:04:23.400 picked up a lot of what's happening currently 110 00:04:23.400 --> 00:04:25.280 in the field of science that we're doing. Or 111 00:04:25.280 --> 00:04:26.920 we might mention some of that a bit later on 112 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:27.400 in the show. 113 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:28.200 Andrew Dunkley: Sounds good. 114 00:04:28.450 --> 00:04:30.800 Uh, my trip, uh, was a little closer to home, 115 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:33.640 only a nine hour flight away. We went to 116 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:36.890 Vietnam for two and a half weeks. Uh, 117 00:04:36.980 --> 00:04:38.940 people jokingly said to me, don't mention the 118 00:04:38.940 --> 00:04:41.300 war. But don't mention the war. 119 00:04:42.420 --> 00:04:44.860 It's uh, it's still very sensitive subject 120 00:04:44.860 --> 00:04:47.540 and, and what blew my mind. 121 00:04:47.700 --> 00:04:50.380 And this will be of interest to, um, I 122 00:04:50.380 --> 00:04:52.260 suppose American listeners because of 123 00:04:52.260 --> 00:04:54.530 America's involvement in the Vietnam War. But 124 00:04:54.530 --> 00:04:57.020 um, there is still strong 125 00:04:57.020 --> 00:04:58.740 division between north and South. 126 00:04:59.780 --> 00:05:02.700 And uh, it hasn't been forgotten even 50 127 00:05:02.700 --> 00:05:05.570 years after it ended. There's still very much 128 00:05:05.570 --> 00:05:08.290 focused on the aftermath of that 129 00:05:08.290 --> 00:05:11.250 conflict. I 130 00:05:11.250 --> 00:05:13.570 suppose because it was such a defining time 131 00:05:13.570 --> 00:05:16.210 in their history. And uh, I mean the 132 00:05:16.210 --> 00:05:18.090 Vietnam War was only a part of what they 133 00:05:18.090 --> 00:05:19.930 dealt with. They'd been dealing with 134 00:05:20.170 --> 00:05:22.810 colonialism prior to that from 135 00:05:22.810 --> 00:05:25.020 France for um, 136 00:05:25.370 --> 00:05:28.250 decades and decades. Uh, so 137 00:05:28.330 --> 00:05:30.690 it's uh, quite uh, extraordinary. There was a 138 00:05:30.690 --> 00:05:33.690 great documentary, uh, series, 139 00:05:33.930 --> 00:05:36.800 I think it was on SBS in Australia called the 140 00:05:36.950 --> 00:05:39.830 Birth of a Nation. And uh, one of our 141 00:05:39.830 --> 00:05:41.710 guides actually mentioned it and said we'd 142 00:05:41.710 --> 00:05:43.630 love to see it over here but we're not 143 00:05:43.630 --> 00:05:46.590 allowed. Uh, so I 144 00:05:46.590 --> 00:05:49.230 watched it and um, I'm going to try and 145 00:05:49.230 --> 00:05:51.110 figure out how to get it to him. But I don't 146 00:05:51.110 --> 00:05:52.070 know. I don't know. 147 00:05:52.310 --> 00:05:55.190 Professor Fred Watson: We'll see. You could get, you could run afoul 148 00:05:55.190 --> 00:05:58.150 of diplomatic uh, niceties if you tried 149 00:05:58.150 --> 00:05:59.030 that. Who knows? 150 00:05:59.030 --> 00:06:01.110 Andrew Dunkley: Could do. Could do. Anyway. 151 00:06:01.190 --> 00:06:02.950 Professor Fred Watson: Especially if you talk about it on a public 152 00:06:03.030 --> 00:06:05.910 podcast. Yeah, maybe like you are doing now. 153 00:06:08.710 --> 00:06:09.910 Andrew Dunkley: They're probably not allowed to watch this 154 00:06:09.910 --> 00:06:11.190 over in Vietnam either. 155 00:06:11.510 --> 00:06:13.030 Professor Fred Watson: Maybe not. No, maybe not. 156 00:06:13.030 --> 00:06:14.830 Andrew Dunkley: It was funny though because I was pasting 157 00:06:14.830 --> 00:06:17.790 posting uh, some little videos. I like to do 158 00:06:17.790 --> 00:06:19.230 little videos while I'm away and I was 159 00:06:19.230 --> 00:06:22.190 posting them on Tick Tock. I picked up 140 160 00:06:22.190 --> 00:06:23.430 Vietnamese followers. 161 00:06:24.150 --> 00:06:26.910 Professor Fred Watson: Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, I thought it was 162 00:06:26.910 --> 00:06:29.550 cool. There you go. At least I can watch your 163 00:06:29.550 --> 00:06:30.550 Tick Tock stuff. 164 00:06:30.550 --> 00:06:33.430 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah. Uh, particularly the one I did at 165 00:06:33.670 --> 00:06:36.150 Harlong Bay. It's beautiful part of the world 166 00:06:36.390 --> 00:06:39.270 and I only did a 60 second sort of three 167 00:06:39.570 --> 00:06:42.450 60 degree scan of the place. But uh, for some 168 00:06:42.450 --> 00:06:45.290 reason that video has gone nuts. It's uh, at 169 00:06:45.290 --> 00:06:47.810 Last count had 14 and a half thousand views. 170 00:06:48.130 --> 00:06:48.610 Professor Fred Watson: Whoa. 171 00:06:49.890 --> 00:06:51.090 Andrew Dunkley: I don't understand it. 172 00:06:51.090 --> 00:06:53.090 Professor Fred Watson: But uh, yeah, that was nice. 173 00:06:54.050 --> 00:06:56.010 Andrew Dunkley: And we did all the other stuff. Train street, 174 00:06:56.010 --> 00:06:57.570 you know where the train runs next to the 175 00:06:57.570 --> 00:06:59.360 cafes in, in um. 176 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:01.730 Professor Fred Watson: No, I didn't. Yeah, yeah, it's very popular 177 00:07:01.890 --> 00:07:02.970 somewhere I should go. 178 00:07:02.970 --> 00:07:05.970 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, up in Hanoi and many, uh, other places 179 00:07:05.970 --> 00:07:08.230 I went. I won't bore people to tears with it. 180 00:07:08.230 --> 00:07:10.030 We've got to get down to business. Uh, our 181 00:07:10.030 --> 00:07:12.550 first topic, Fred Watson, is very 182 00:07:12.550 --> 00:07:13.470 explosive. 183 00:07:13.550 --> 00:07:16.430 This is the um, Blue 184 00:07:16.430 --> 00:07:19.270 Origin Knot launch that happened the 185 00:07:19.270 --> 00:07:21.830 other day. Uh, in fact I don't even think it 186 00:07:21.830 --> 00:07:23.990 got an inch off the ground before it went up 187 00:07:23.990 --> 00:07:25.940 in a beautiful nuclear um, 188 00:07:26.510 --> 00:07:27.070 plume. 189 00:07:27.470 --> 00:07:30.110 Professor Fred Watson: It was very like a nuclear plume. And no, it 190 00:07:30.110 --> 00:07:31.670 wasn't actually meant to get off the ground. 191 00:07:31.670 --> 00:07:34.550 This was a fire test. Oh, it spied all 192 00:07:34.550 --> 00:07:36.990 right. Yeah, it did. Uh, it was 193 00:07:37.100 --> 00:07:39.660 um, um, yes, 194 00:07:39.660 --> 00:07:42.660 basically testing out the engines for a 195 00:07:42.660 --> 00:07:44.500 launch that was forthcoming. That was going 196 00:07:44.500 --> 00:07:46.040 to take a whole lot of uh, 197 00:07:47.110 --> 00:07:49.420 ah, telecommunications satellites, 198 00:07:50.070 --> 00:07:52.950 uh, up, uh, into orbit. Uh, 199 00:07:52.950 --> 00:07:55.340 they were fortunately not on the rocket. 200 00:07:55.810 --> 00:07:58.340 Uh, I think they were uh, the 201 00:07:58.340 --> 00:08:00.940 Apple Leo, uh, satellites which is 202 00:08:01.180 --> 00:08:03.820 what used to be called Kuiper, uh, and is 203 00:08:03.820 --> 00:08:06.370 perhaps the principal competitor 204 00:08:06.370 --> 00:08:08.610 potentially to Starlink. 205 00:08:08.870 --> 00:08:11.330 Um, anyway, the satellites were not 206 00:08:12.050 --> 00:08:14.650 on the booster, uh 207 00:08:14.770 --> 00:08:17.530 and uh, it basically was to 208 00:08:17.530 --> 00:08:20.410 test fire its seven engines. This is 209 00:08:20.410 --> 00:08:23.410 the new Glenn booster, which is Blue Origin's 210 00:08:23.410 --> 00:08:26.050 heavy lift booster. It's not as heavy 211 00:08:26.210 --> 00:08:29.130 lift as the SpaceX, uh, 212 00:08:29.130 --> 00:08:32.010 super heavy, uh, booster that takes the 213 00:08:32.010 --> 00:08:32.610 starship up. 214 00:08:32.610 --> 00:08:34.290 Andrew Dunkley: It's not lifting anything now, is it? 215 00:08:34.610 --> 00:08:37.170 Professor Fred Watson: It's not, no. And uh, what. 216 00:08:38.670 --> 00:08:41.150 It's got sort of serious ramifications 217 00:08:41.870 --> 00:08:44.390 because not only did they blow up the rocket, 218 00:08:44.390 --> 00:08:47.110 they also blew up the launch pad. Uh, 219 00:08:47.110 --> 00:08:49.670 effectively there's a lot of damage, uh, to 220 00:08:49.670 --> 00:08:51.430 the launch pad, which is, if I remember 221 00:08:51.430 --> 00:08:52.950 rightly, it is at Cape Canaveral. 222 00:08:52.950 --> 00:08:53.570 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I think so. 223 00:08:53.570 --> 00:08:56.230 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, and um, 224 00:08:56.430 --> 00:08:59.190 that explosion, uh, has caused damage that 225 00:08:59.190 --> 00:09:01.790 people are now talking about several months, 226 00:09:01.790 --> 00:09:04.670 if not a year or so to repair. 227 00:09:05.410 --> 00:09:07.830 Uh, and that's bad because that's the only 228 00:09:07.830 --> 00:09:10.130 facility in the world that can launch the new 229 00:09:10.130 --> 00:09:12.970 Glenn booster. And the new Glenn booster 230 00:09:12.970 --> 00:09:14.890 is needed for the Artemis programme. 231 00:09:15.570 --> 00:09:17.450 Uh, in particular, 232 00:09:19.050 --> 00:09:21.450 uh, later this year there was supposed to be 233 00:09:21.610 --> 00:09:23.290 a test launch of 234 00:09:24.570 --> 00:09:27.410 their Blue Moon lander. This is Blue 235 00:09:27.410 --> 00:09:30.210 Origins Lunar Lander, um, which 236 00:09:30.210 --> 00:09:32.820 is uh, um, 237 00:09:32.820 --> 00:09:35.770 basically uh, the competition, if 238 00:09:35.770 --> 00:09:38.210 I can put it that way, with the SpaceX 239 00:09:38.210 --> 00:09:41.210 Starship. So NASA contracted both SpaceX 240 00:09:41.590 --> 00:09:44.270 and Blue Origin to develop a 241 00:09:44.270 --> 00:09:46.870 lander, lunar lander for the moon. SpaceX 242 00:09:46.950 --> 00:09:49.350 has theirs based on the starship. 243 00:09:49.740 --> 00:09:52.630 Um, what is it, four to 244 00:09:52.630 --> 00:09:55.470 50 metres tall? It's colossal. Uh, to 245 00:09:55.470 --> 00:09:57.750 land that on a rough surface on the moon. I'm 246 00:09:57.750 --> 00:10:00.230 not sure I'd be that keen on that, but never 247 00:10:00.230 --> 00:10:03.030 mind. Uh, uh, the Blue Origin 248 00:10:03.030 --> 00:10:05.960 version, the uh, uh, 249 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:08.590 Blue Moon as it's called, uh, that is only 250 00:10:08.590 --> 00:10:11.030 eight storeys high, uh, so 251 00:10:11.430 --> 00:10:13.970 it's uh, shorter. Uh, but these two 252 00:10:14.290 --> 00:10:16.450 are both in the running to land the first 253 00:10:16.850 --> 00:10:19.570 astronauts on the lunar surface in 2028. 254 00:10:20.110 --> 00:10:22.610 Uh, so, um, there was going to be a test of 255 00:10:23.010 --> 00:10:25.250 uh, the new um, Glenn 256 00:10:25.730 --> 00:10:28.130 Heavy Lifter, lifting up a 257 00:10:28.370 --> 00:10:31.170 blue moon, um, landing vehicle, 258 00:10:31.490 --> 00:10:34.170 ah, a prototype landing vehicle, uh, 259 00:10:34.610 --> 00:10:36.850 into orbit and actually to touch it down on 260 00:10:36.850 --> 00:10:38.330 the moon. And that was supposed to happen 261 00:10:38.330 --> 00:10:40.930 this year. That's clearly off the agenda now. 262 00:10:41.330 --> 00:10:43.410 Uh, and so, um, it's not going to happen 263 00:10:43.570 --> 00:10:45.790 actually. It's a little bit, because I've 264 00:10:45.790 --> 00:10:48.670 just read today that that lunar lander, 265 00:10:48.910 --> 00:10:50.910 um, which of course wasn't on board the 266 00:10:50.910 --> 00:10:53.430 rocket when it exploded, has just passed with 267 00:10:53.430 --> 00:10:56.270 flying colours. It's uh, environmental 268 00:10:56.270 --> 00:10:58.030 test. There's an environmental test that 269 00:10:58.030 --> 00:10:59.950 everything goes through. It's in A huge 270 00:10:59.950 --> 00:11:02.790 vacuum chamber, um, which is, um, a 271 00:11:02.790 --> 00:11:05.070 NASA facility, uh, and 272 00:11:05.630 --> 00:11:08.590 you can change, uh, uh, the temperature 273 00:11:08.670 --> 00:11:11.550 to match those huge extremes of 274 00:11:11.550 --> 00:11:13.150 temperature that you will get on the moon. 275 00:11:13.510 --> 00:11:16.470 Uh, so their prototype lunar lander, the 276 00:11:16.470 --> 00:11:19.050 blue MO Mark 1, which is called 277 00:11:19.050 --> 00:11:21.370 Endurance, which is a great name 278 00:11:21.690 --> 00:11:23.330 because, uh, that's not what's happened to 279 00:11:23.330 --> 00:11:25.570 the booster. But Endurance has passed with 280 00:11:25.570 --> 00:11:27.610 flying colours. Sadly, at the moment there's 281 00:11:27.610 --> 00:11:29.970 nothing to take it into space, so we'll have 282 00:11:29.970 --> 00:11:31.370 to see how that evolves. 283 00:11:31.450 --> 00:11:34.410 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I think you and I spoke 284 00:11:34.570 --> 00:11:37.450 about NASA looking at other options other 285 00:11:37.450 --> 00:11:40.450 than SpaceX, um, not long before you, you 286 00:11:40.450 --> 00:11:42.230 went away and, um, 287 00:11:43.210 --> 00:11:46.210 now this is kind of, for want of 288 00:11:46.210 --> 00:11:48.210 a better term, blown up in Blue Origin's 289 00:11:48.210 --> 00:11:50.470 face. That takes them off the table. 290 00:11:50.470 --> 00:11:53.270 Professor Fred Watson: Doesn't, uh, seems to for a 291 00:11:53.270 --> 00:11:55.670 while, unless they can do some very 292 00:11:55.830 --> 00:11:57.990 rapid repairs to the launch 293 00:11:58.230 --> 00:12:00.390 vehicle, sorry, the launch site, 294 00:12:01.250 --> 00:12:03.750 uh, the launch facility. So, yeah, it could 295 00:12:03.750 --> 00:12:06.750 push back. So the idea was that late next 296 00:12:06.750 --> 00:12:09.270 year, uh, there would be the 297 00:12:09.270 --> 00:12:12.150 Artemis III flight, which would consist 298 00:12:12.150 --> 00:12:14.950 of these two potential lunar landing 299 00:12:14.950 --> 00:12:17.710 vehicles, um, the Starship on SpaceX's 300 00:12:17.710 --> 00:12:20.150 side, the Blue Moon on Blue Origin, 301 00:12:21.090 --> 00:12:23.330 both going to be launched into Earth orbit, 302 00:12:23.630 --> 00:12:26.130 uh, to have, um, rendezvous 303 00:12:26.130 --> 00:12:28.850 tests, uh, to demonstrate their viability, 304 00:12:29.590 --> 00:12:32.130 uh, when you link them to the space launch 305 00:12:32.130 --> 00:12:34.770 System. Basically the Orion spacecraft, which 306 00:12:34.770 --> 00:12:37.169 is what took the Artemis, uh, II 307 00:12:37.170 --> 00:12:39.170 astronauts around the moon. Ah, that will 308 00:12:39.170 --> 00:12:42.170 take Artemis iii, beg your pardon, Artemis IV 309 00:12:42.170 --> 00:12:45.090 astronauts to the moon. But to land, they've 310 00:12:45.090 --> 00:12:47.930 got to transfer into another spacecraft and 311 00:12:47.930 --> 00:12:50.730 land on the lunar surface. So all that 312 00:12:50.810 --> 00:12:53.530 I think, is being thrown into question, 313 00:12:53.810 --> 00:12:56.210 uh, with this explosion. We will wait to see. 314 00:12:56.210 --> 00:12:57.890 It's still too early. We don't even know what 315 00:12:57.890 --> 00:13:00.890 caused it yet. Uh, it was only 316 00:13:01.530 --> 00:13:04.090 less, uh, than a week ago as we speak. 317 00:13:04.510 --> 00:13:07.370 Uh, so we don't actually know 318 00:13:07.370 --> 00:13:09.370 what the consequences are likely to be, but 319 00:13:09.370 --> 00:13:11.850 they could be quite serious for the 320 00:13:11.850 --> 00:13:12.730 Artemis programme. 321 00:13:12.810 --> 00:13:15.580 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, Uh, I mean, uh, I 322 00:13:15.580 --> 00:13:17.780 think, uh, Elon Musk calls these things, 323 00:13:18.130 --> 00:13:19.860 um, successful failures. 324 00:13:20.030 --> 00:13:22.820 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, I don't know, a rapid 325 00:13:22.900 --> 00:13:24.420 unscheduled disintegration. 326 00:13:24.420 --> 00:13:26.500 Andrew Dunkley: Yes. I don't know what Jeff Bezos calls them, 327 00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:29.380 but, um, yeah, 328 00:13:29.380 --> 00:13:31.060 hopefully they can get down to the bottom of 329 00:13:31.060 --> 00:13:33.020 it. But, yeah, it does throw a spanner into 330 00:13:33.020 --> 00:13:34.860 the works. Maybe it was a spanner thrown into 331 00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:37.020 the works that caused the explosion. Who 332 00:13:37.020 --> 00:13:37.380 knows? 333 00:13:38.820 --> 00:13:40.780 Professor Fred Watson: The one good news storey part, ah, of the 334 00:13:40.780 --> 00:13:43.500 storey is nobody was injured. Yeah. 335 00:13:43.500 --> 00:13:43.860 Andrew Dunkley: Wow. 336 00:13:43.940 --> 00:13:46.650 Professor Fred Watson: Because as you said, it looked like a nucle 337 00:13:46.880 --> 00:13:49.770 explosion. It was incredible. Uh, 338 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:52.680 and, um, so there was huge 339 00:13:52.680 --> 00:13:55.160 potential for injury there, but everybody was 340 00:13:55.160 --> 00:13:55.840 Accounted for. 341 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:58.800 Andrew Dunkley: I actually read today that some people 342 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:01.280 who watched the explosion, 343 00:14:01.950 --> 00:14:04.440 um, this sort of demonstrates how big and 344 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:06.880 powerful it was. Took 37 345 00:14:07.040 --> 00:14:09.290 seconds to feel the shockwave. Uh, 346 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.240 Professor Fred Watson: really? So they must have been a long way 347 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:13.520 away. 348 00:14:13.520 --> 00:14:16.080 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, but they could see it quite clearly. It 349 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:18.360 was such a big explosion that the shockwave 350 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:20.460 took 37 seconds to reach there. 351 00:14:21.420 --> 00:14:24.140 That's amazing. Yeah. All 352 00:14:24.140 --> 00:14:26.900 right. Um, so, uh, yeah, it does 353 00:14:26.900 --> 00:14:28.980 sort of throw into question the future of 354 00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:31.940 Blue Origin, um, partnering with NASA 355 00:14:31.940 --> 00:14:34.870 for Artemis 3. But, uh, 356 00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:36.460 never write these people off. 357 00:14:36.780 --> 00:14:39.660 Professor Fred Watson: I've discovered we're not doing 358 00:14:39.660 --> 00:14:42.140 that. They will rise, 359 00:14:42.140 --> 00:14:44.260 Phoenix, like from the ashes. But the 360 00:14:44.260 --> 00:14:46.580 question is how soon and what it will do to 361 00:14:46.580 --> 00:14:47.580 NASA's schedule. 362 00:14:47.580 --> 00:14:48.220 Andrew Dunkley: Exactly. 363 00:14:48.220 --> 00:14:49.260 Professor Fred Watson: With Artemisia. 364 00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:51.480 Andrew Dunkley: More to come on that, and you can read about 365 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:53.880 it, uh, at the Conversation website. 366 00:14:54.520 --> 00:14:56.600 This is Space Nuts, Andrew Dunkley with 367 00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:58.280 Professor Fred Watson Watson. 368 00:15:00.920 --> 00:15:03.040 Generic: Okay, we checked all four systems and 369 00:15:03.040 --> 00:15:04.840 Professor Fred Watson: being with a go, Space Nuts. 370 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.480 Andrew Dunkley: Now, our next storey, Fred Watson, 371 00:15:07.630 --> 00:15:10.320 uh, has a lot of moving parts as well. 372 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:13.320 Nothing explosive, but, uh, uh, we're 373 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:15.720 talking, what, primordial black holes and 374 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:17.720 gravitational microlensing. Is that, Is that, 375 00:15:17.870 --> 00:15:19.150 that what it's about? 376 00:15:19.150 --> 00:15:21.430 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, uh, it's certainly, uh, the 377 00:15:21.430 --> 00:15:24.310 gravitational microlensing. What, uh, it 378 00:15:24.310 --> 00:15:26.030 means for primordial black holes 379 00:15:27.150 --> 00:15:29.350 remains to be seen. But, uh, it's a good 380 00:15:29.350 --> 00:15:31.150 opportunity to talk about it and talk about 381 00:15:31.150 --> 00:15:33.350 the latest research on this. So what's the 382 00:15:33.350 --> 00:15:36.230 storey? Um, on the night of the 18th of 383 00:15:36.230 --> 00:15:38.030 December, 2019, 384 00:15:39.070 --> 00:15:41.710 uh, there was a 385 00:15:41.790 --> 00:15:44.630 microlensing event observed with 386 00:15:44.630 --> 00:15:47.390 a star in the Large Magellanic Cloud, 387 00:15:47.870 --> 00:15:50.460 the nearest of our. Our sort of large, ish 388 00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:52.870 galactic neighbours. Um, 389 00:15:53.340 --> 00:15:55.580 the satellite galaxy of our Milky Way, 390 00:15:55.580 --> 00:15:58.580 165,000 light years away, as the 391 00:15:58.580 --> 00:16:00.860 crow flies, as far as I remember. 392 00:16:01.260 --> 00:16:03.740 So, um, what's a microlensing event? Well, 393 00:16:04.060 --> 00:16:05.980 something passes in front of a star. 394 00:16:06.830 --> 00:16:08.780 Uh, you can't actually see the something 395 00:16:08.780 --> 00:16:11.180 because it's too faint. You can see the light 396 00:16:11.180 --> 00:16:13.940 of the star. And you might think there's 397 00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:15.940 something passing in front of a star. It 398 00:16:15.940 --> 00:16:18.930 would dim the light of the star. But 399 00:16:18.930 --> 00:16:20.890 actually, if the geometry is right, in other 400 00:16:20.890 --> 00:16:22.970 words, if there's something that passes 401 00:16:22.970 --> 00:16:25.570 between you and the star is far enough away 402 00:16:25.570 --> 00:16:27.250 from the star, you get the opposite effect. 403 00:16:27.650 --> 00:16:30.610 The, um, distortion of the space around 404 00:16:30.610 --> 00:16:33.170 the invisible object, uh, actually 405 00:16:33.250 --> 00:16:36.170 acts as a magnifying glass. And so you 406 00:16:36.170 --> 00:16:38.970 get a brightening of the light of the distant 407 00:16:38.970 --> 00:16:41.850 star. Uh, and this is a phenomenon known as 408 00:16:41.850 --> 00:16:43.890 gravitational microlensing. It's well 409 00:16:43.890 --> 00:16:46.290 established, well observed. Uh, there's a 410 00:16:46.290 --> 00:16:49.150 team in New Zealand which, um, he's Very, 411 00:16:49.150 --> 00:16:51.510 very adept at these microlensing 412 00:16:51.510 --> 00:16:53.950 observations. Uh, so 413 00:16:55.310 --> 00:16:58.150 what we see when that happens is a 414 00:16:58.150 --> 00:17:01.030 rise in the brightness of the star and then 415 00:17:01.030 --> 00:17:03.630 a fall in the brightness of the background 416 00:17:03.630 --> 00:17:05.070 star which 417 00:17:07.230 --> 00:17:10.150 we call a light curve. It's the way the light 418 00:17:10.150 --> 00:17:12.190 changes over time. You can plot it out as a 419 00:17:12.190 --> 00:17:14.590 graph. And it's got a very characteristic 420 00:17:14.590 --> 00:17:17.110 shape. It's a bit like a rather elongated 421 00:17:17.110 --> 00:17:19.470 volcano. It's got a steady ris, 422 00:17:20.490 --> 00:17:23.400 a peak and then a rapid fall, uh, 423 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:25.890 that falls away very like the flanks of a 424 00:17:25.890 --> 00:17:28.330 volcano. So that's the sort of shape. 425 00:17:28.890 --> 00:17:31.690 So this uh, was the event that was 426 00:17:31.690 --> 00:17:33.930 observed on 18th December. 427 00:17:35.130 --> 00:17:36.970 Can't remember which telescope it was used. 428 00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:40.330 Uh, but we have a group 429 00:17:40.330 --> 00:17:41.930 of Australians who uh, are 430 00:17:42.890 --> 00:17:44.970 directly involved with this. 431 00:17:45.620 --> 00:17:48.370 Uh, so the, the question is 432 00:17:48.690 --> 00:17:51.610 what was the object that passed in front of 433 00:17:51.610 --> 00:17:52.050 the star? 434 00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:55.370 Andrew Dunkley: I'm going to guess maybe a 435 00:17:55.370 --> 00:17:56.690 primordial black hole. 436 00:17:57.330 --> 00:17:59.250 Professor Fred Watson: Well, that's 437 00:17:59.970 --> 00:18:02.690 perhaps the most, um, provocative 438 00:18:03.330 --> 00:18:06.250 explanation. Uh, they've given it 439 00:18:06.250 --> 00:18:07.970 a name, this thing, they've called it Phoebe, 440 00:18:07.970 --> 00:18:09.970 which is I think a lovely name actually. 441 00:18:10.780 --> 00:18:13.410 Um, but uh, the issue 442 00:18:13.410 --> 00:18:16.380 is it is kind 443 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:18.660 of too small to be 444 00:18:19.220 --> 00:18:21.860 anything normal, if I 445 00:18:21.940 --> 00:18:24.550 put it that way. Um, 446 00:18:24.740 --> 00:18:27.380 so what are the possibilities? One 447 00:18:27.460 --> 00:18:30.260 is what we 448 00:18:30.260 --> 00:18:32.940 sometimes call a rogue planet or an 449 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:35.460 orphan planet, better known perhaps as a free 450 00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:37.940 floating planet. In other words a planetary 451 00:18:37.940 --> 00:18:40.780 sized object, maybe something that's been 452 00:18:40.780 --> 00:18:43.500 ejected from its solar system or something 453 00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:46.060 that never gained enough mass to become a 454 00:18:46.060 --> 00:18:48.880 star and it's just sort of wandering, 455 00:18:49.350 --> 00:18:52.040 uh, through the galaxy. Uh, we know there are 456 00:18:52.040 --> 00:18:54.960 many of these things, uh, so that could be 457 00:18:56.020 --> 00:18:58.800 uh, one of the explanations for it. But 458 00:18:59.080 --> 00:19:02.000 uh, the issue is this thing 459 00:19:02.560 --> 00:19:05.480 has basically got a 460 00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:08.320 very, very small mass. Uh, 461 00:19:08.320 --> 00:19:10.520 it's only about three times the mass of the 462 00:19:10.520 --> 00:19:12.860 moon. Uh, and that's 463 00:19:13.650 --> 00:19:16.650 kind of small for a planet. Uh, so it 464 00:19:16.650 --> 00:19:19.650 suggests it's an object 465 00:19:19.890 --> 00:19:22.850 that is not a dwarf 466 00:19:22.850 --> 00:19:25.330 planet or, sorry, a rogue planet or an orphan 467 00:19:25.330 --> 00:19:28.130 planet. And it points towards this 468 00:19:28.769 --> 00:19:31.170 much more exotic notion 469 00:19:31.490 --> 00:19:34.300 of a primordial black hole, uh, 470 00:19:34.300 --> 00:19:36.770 which you've kind of, you've already flagged. 471 00:19:37.170 --> 00:19:40.010 And that's where it gets really exciting. So, 472 00:19:40.080 --> 00:19:42.960 so primordial black holes, we've 473 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.480 talked about them before. They were predicted 474 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:48.370 by Stephen Hawking. They um, 475 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.000 were predicted by him to have been 476 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.720 a byproduct of the Big Bang. In other words, 477 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.640 these are things that don't form from 478 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:00.400 collapsing stars like the stellar mass black 479 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.040 holes that we see, but from, 480 00:20:03.470 --> 00:20:05.590 um, well, basically, um, 481 00:20:05.590 --> 00:20:08.160 fluctuations in the density, 482 00:20:08.830 --> 00:20:11.670 uh, in the first few 483 00:20:11.910 --> 00:20:14.870 milliseconds after The Big Bang, the density 484 00:20:14.870 --> 00:20:17.870 of that hot medium. Uh, in other words, you 485 00:20:17.870 --> 00:20:19.990 know, if you could get these little spots 486 00:20:19.990 --> 00:20:22.750 that collapse instantaneously to become a 487 00:20:22.750 --> 00:20:25.070 black hole, what you'll produce in the Big 488 00:20:25.070 --> 00:20:27.990 Bang is not just time and space, but 489 00:20:27.990 --> 00:20:30.870 you litter it with these primordial 490 00:20:30.870 --> 00:20:33.430 black holes. And I think it's 491 00:20:33.670 --> 00:20:36.590 from Hawking's work that we assume that 492 00:20:36.590 --> 00:20:39.430 they can be any size you like. Um, they 493 00:20:39.430 --> 00:20:41.750 can be, you know, perhaps, 494 00:20:42.390 --> 00:20:44.390 uh, supermassive black holes, which we know 495 00:20:44.390 --> 00:20:47.190 are the centres of galaxies or, uh, 496 00:20:47.190 --> 00:20:49.790 smaller than stellar mass black 497 00:20:49.790 --> 00:20:52.590 holes. And so by a stellar mass black hole, 498 00:20:52.590 --> 00:20:55.510 we mean one that has a mass of about not 499 00:20:55.510 --> 00:20:57.590 too different from a star. In fact, typically 500 00:20:57.590 --> 00:21:00.580 about five times the mass of the sun. Um, 501 00:21:00.790 --> 00:21:02.830 and they are, ah, thought to have been caused 502 00:21:02.830 --> 00:21:05.030 by a star exploding at the end of its life. 503 00:21:05.030 --> 00:21:07.710 The core collapses, uh, nothing will stop the 504 00:21:07.710 --> 00:21:09.470 collapse and it goes into becoming a black 505 00:21:09.470 --> 00:21:12.250 hole. And but for a star to behave like 506 00:21:12.250 --> 00:21:15.090 that, it's got to be massive, it's got to be 507 00:21:15.090 --> 00:21:17.250 at least, well, five to ten times the mass of 508 00:21:17.250 --> 00:21:20.170 the sun. Um, so that does not 509 00:21:20.170 --> 00:21:22.650 account for things that are, uh, three times 510 00:21:22.970 --> 00:21:25.690 the mass of the Moon. Uh, but, 511 00:21:27.010 --> 00:21:29.930 um, if you can have primordial 512 00:21:29.930 --> 00:21:32.250 black holes of any mass, then 513 00:21:32.730 --> 00:21:35.210 that makes Phoebe a 514 00:21:35.530 --> 00:21:37.770 very distinct candidate for 515 00:21:39.130 --> 00:21:41.960 a primordial black hole. Um, I 516 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:44.280 might mention that the researchers who've 517 00:21:44.280 --> 00:21:47.160 done this, uh, work are at Swinburne 518 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:49.920 University in Melbourne, Uh, uh, a university 519 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:53.040 very active in its studies of actually 520 00:21:53.520 --> 00:21:56.240 most phenomena to do with our galaxy. 521 00:21:56.630 --> 00:21:58.720 Uh, they've got some extremely talented 522 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:00.160 scientists there, uh, some of whom I know 523 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.090 quite well. Um, so, uh, 524 00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:06.000 it's definitely a microlending event. 525 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:08.760 Something has caused this phenomenon. Uh, the 526 00:22:08.760 --> 00:22:10.320 question is, what is it? 527 00:22:11.650 --> 00:22:13.280 So let me, um, 528 00:22:14.770 --> 00:22:17.650 segue, if I may, to one of 529 00:22:17.650 --> 00:22:20.010 the talks at, uh, the conference that I was 530 00:22:20.010 --> 00:22:22.610 at in Germany, uh, given by 531 00:22:23.250 --> 00:22:25.170 people who, uh, are. Well, in this case, it 532 00:22:25.170 --> 00:22:27.850 was a black hole specialist. And he was 533 00:22:27.850 --> 00:22:29.410 saying that 534 00:22:30.690 --> 00:22:32.050 the evidence for 535 00:22:33.010 --> 00:22:35.970 primordial black holes is 536 00:22:36.370 --> 00:22:39.250 growing. Uh, and this is just one more 537 00:22:39.250 --> 00:22:41.660 example of it, the example of Phoebe here. 538 00:22:42.450 --> 00:22:45.370 Uh, but he also said he thought this was 539 00:22:45.370 --> 00:22:48.370 the next big thing in black hole 540 00:22:48.370 --> 00:22:50.850 science, uh, to actually 541 00:22:51.410 --> 00:22:54.370 determine the reality of primordial 542 00:22:54.370 --> 00:22:56.010 black holes, whether they are there or 543 00:22:56.010 --> 00:22:58.170 whether they're just, ah, a wild prediction 544 00:22:58.170 --> 00:23:00.450 of professor, uh, Hawking. 545 00:23:00.940 --> 00:23:03.730 Um, but he also made the comet 546 00:23:04.290 --> 00:23:06.850 the comment. Sorry, not the comet. He made 547 00:23:06.850 --> 00:23:09.800 the comment that. But, uh, it 548 00:23:09.800 --> 00:23:12.800 was his belief that the next Nobel Prize in 549 00:23:12.800 --> 00:23:15.400 astronomy or physics is the way it goes 550 00:23:15.560 --> 00:23:18.480 would be the discovery of a 551 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:20.920 primordial black hole. In other words, 552 00:23:21.580 --> 00:23:24.440 uh, finding absolutely rock solid evidence. 553 00:23:24.840 --> 00:23:27.120 That primordial black holes exist. Now, 554 00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:29.160 Phoebe is not that rock solid evidence. 555 00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:32.200 Because we've got multiple theories. 556 00:23:32.260 --> 00:23:34.400 Uh, yeah, multiple theories. It could even 557 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.350 be, uh, you know, a 558 00:23:37.350 --> 00:23:39.590 lost satellite of a planet. That's been 559 00:23:39.590 --> 00:23:42.070 chucked out of its solar system. So it could 560 00:23:42.070 --> 00:23:44.230 be an object like the moon or Mercury or 561 00:23:44.230 --> 00:23:46.630 something like that. But that seems 562 00:23:46.630 --> 00:23:48.990 unlikely. And, in fact, 563 00:23:49.300 --> 00:23:52.190 um, the primordial 564 00:23:52.270 --> 00:23:54.790 mass black hole idea, I think, is much more 565 00:23:54.790 --> 00:23:57.670 interesting. It's one that I'm sure 566 00:23:57.670 --> 00:24:00.310 will be looked at in detail. The problem with 567 00:24:00.310 --> 00:24:02.750 these gravitational microlensing events, 568 00:24:02.750 --> 00:24:05.510 Andrew, is you only get one shot at it. You 569 00:24:05.510 --> 00:24:07.930 never see the object. So Phoebe's 570 00:24:08.170 --> 00:24:10.450 basically never going to be seen again. All 571 00:24:10.450 --> 00:24:13.090 we've seen is the effect of it passing in 572 00:24:13.090 --> 00:24:16.010 front of a star. Um, so 573 00:24:16.490 --> 00:24:19.250 what we've got to look for is other, perhaps 574 00:24:19.250 --> 00:24:22.010 other similar phenomena. Or 575 00:24:22.170 --> 00:24:25.010 something that is unequivocally a 576 00:24:25.010 --> 00:24:27.290 black hole. But has a mass less than the sun. 577 00:24:27.290 --> 00:24:29.530 And we did talk about a candidate object, 578 00:24:30.040 --> 00:24:32.730 uh, before we both went on our various 579 00:24:32.730 --> 00:24:35.570 sojourns. Uh, we did talk about an object 580 00:24:35.570 --> 00:24:37.330 like that. I'd need to look it up to find out 581 00:24:37.330 --> 00:24:40.230 what it was. And if we can nail one 582 00:24:40.230 --> 00:24:42.470 of these things and say that is definitely 583 00:24:42.630 --> 00:24:45.110 what it is. Um, in fact, the object we talked 584 00:24:45.110 --> 00:24:47.830 about was, uh, the result of, I think, a 585 00:24:47.830 --> 00:24:49.110 collision that was measured with 586 00:24:49.190 --> 00:24:51.950 gravitational waves. So all this is 587 00:24:51.950 --> 00:24:54.749 perhaps pointing to the idea of primordial 588 00:24:54.749 --> 00:24:56.470 mass black holes. Somebody will nail it 589 00:24:56.470 --> 00:24:58.110 before too long, and, uh, they'll probably 590 00:24:58.110 --> 00:24:59.190 get the Nobel Prize. 591 00:24:59.910 --> 00:25:02.710 Andrew Dunkley: Well, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. 592 00:25:02.950 --> 00:25:05.790 Because in the past we've had theories 593 00:25:05.790 --> 00:25:08.710 about things existing, and voila, suddenly we 594 00:25:08.710 --> 00:25:11.570 find an exoplanet. And we've found thousands 595 00:25:11.570 --> 00:25:13.570 and thousands of them. So it stands to reason 596 00:25:13.570 --> 00:25:15.810 that this is just another progression in that 597 00:25:15.810 --> 00:25:18.770 regard. The evidence is 598 00:25:18.770 --> 00:25:21.210 stacking up. We haven't confirmed one yet, 599 00:25:21.210 --> 00:25:23.890 but it sounds like it's going to happen. 600 00:25:24.530 --> 00:25:27.290 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I think that's right. I think we're on 601 00:25:27.290 --> 00:25:30.050 the track of, uh, a whole new 602 00:25:30.530 --> 00:25:33.530 regime of physics. And, 603 00:25:33.530 --> 00:25:36.170 of course, primordial black 604 00:25:36.170 --> 00:25:38.690 holes are, uh, one potential candidate for 605 00:25:38.850 --> 00:25:41.710 dark matter. Um, which 606 00:25:41.710 --> 00:25:44.590 was ruled out in 607 00:25:44.590 --> 00:25:47.110 the 1990s, maybe 608 00:25:47.110 --> 00:25:49.510 prematurely. It was ruled out because we 609 00:25:49.510 --> 00:25:52.070 didn't see a whole lot of these 610 00:25:52.070 --> 00:25:54.350 microlensing events. Which you'd expect to 611 00:25:54.350 --> 00:25:56.709 see if there was a lot of primordial mass 612 00:25:56.709 --> 00:25:59.230 black holes. Maybe it's just that we weren't 613 00:25:59.230 --> 00:26:01.030 looking hard enough that we missed them. 614 00:26:01.270 --> 00:26:03.950 Andrew Dunkley: Maybe, um, yeah, I never look hard enough for 615 00:26:03.950 --> 00:26:04.390 anything. 616 00:26:05.030 --> 00:26:07.890 Professor Fred Watson: Well, that's because you're. You're a male. 617 00:26:07.970 --> 00:26:10.890 Yeah. You're a bloke. And we don't. We, 618 00:26:10.890 --> 00:26:13.450 we look at something and we just don't see 619 00:26:13.450 --> 00:26:13.690 it. 620 00:26:13.690 --> 00:26:15.170 Andrew Dunkley: No, no. 621 00:26:16.610 --> 00:26:19.610 Which is, you know, not real good for 622 00:26:19.610 --> 00:26:21.130 human history. Because weren't we the 623 00:26:21.130 --> 00:26:21.650 hunters? 624 00:26:21.650 --> 00:26:23.170 Professor Fred Watson: Like we were supposed to be able to see 625 00:26:23.170 --> 00:26:26.160 stuff. Quite so. Oh. 626 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:28.970 Andrew Dunkley: Ah, dear. Uh, it's a really fascinating 627 00:26:28.970 --> 00:26:31.850 storey and I venture to say there'll be more 628 00:26:31.850 --> 00:26:33.930 on this in the not too distant future. But 629 00:26:33.930 --> 00:26:35.810 you can read about it. Great, uh, article 630 00:26:35.810 --> 00:26:37.410 about it on the Univers 631 00:26:39.310 --> 00:26:41.950 website. You're listening to and possibly 632 00:26:41.950 --> 00:26:44.910 viewing Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and 633 00:26:44.910 --> 00:26:46.110 Professor Fred Watson Watson. 634 00:26:48.590 --> 00:26:49.990 Generic: Roger, your lot clearer. 635 00:26:49.990 --> 00:26:52.990 Andrew Dunkley: Also Space Nuts. A Final Storey, Fred Watson 636 00:26:52.990 --> 00:26:55.990 intrigues me for one very good reason. It's 637 00:26:55.990 --> 00:26:58.230 one of the pet topics of our audience. We get 638 00:26:58.230 --> 00:27:00.670 a lot of questions about dark energy. 639 00:27:00.910 --> 00:27:03.910 But uh, this storey ponders the 640 00:27:03.910 --> 00:27:06.820 question. Did we actually invent dark 641 00:27:06.820 --> 00:27:09.580 energy for nothing? Why are they suggesting 642 00:27:09.580 --> 00:27:09.940 that? 643 00:27:11.600 --> 00:27:13.700 Professor Fred Watson: Um. Yeah, 644 00:27:14.740 --> 00:27:16.180 it's all mathematics. 645 00:27:17.140 --> 00:27:19.920 And I'd like just to refer, uh, 646 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:22.660 listeners and viewers, uh, at the outset to a 647 00:27:22.660 --> 00:27:25.620 very nice article, uh, on this 648 00:27:25.820 --> 00:27:28.580 uh, from um, our much admired 649 00:27:28.580 --> 00:27:31.300 Universe Today uh, website that's 650 00:27:31.460 --> 00:27:34.460 kind of an old friend of um, 651 00:27:34.460 --> 00:27:36.840 of Space Nuts, an article written by Mark 652 00:27:36.840 --> 00:27:39.320 Thompson, uh, which really very 653 00:27:39.320 --> 00:27:42.320 eloquently puts this storey 654 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:44.680 into perspective. And I'm going to quote 655 00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:47.480 Mark, I hope he won't mind me doing that. Um, 656 00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:50.560 because he introduces uh, this 657 00:27:50.560 --> 00:27:53.360 article by saying, stand a pencil on its end 658 00:27:53.600 --> 00:27:56.480 and mathematically speaking it's perfectly 659 00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:58.520 balanced. Every force is accounted for and 660 00:27:58.520 --> 00:28:00.760 the equations are satisfied. And yet you 661 00:28:00.760 --> 00:28:03.120 already know what happens next. The slightest 662 00:28:03.120 --> 00:28:06.100 disturbance and it topples a solution that 663 00:28:06.100 --> 00:28:09.020 exists on paper but can never survive 664 00:28:09.260 --> 00:28:12.060 contact with reality. In other words, 665 00:28:12.580 --> 00:28:15.580 um, something that's stable, but only 666 00:28:15.660 --> 00:28:18.580 stable. Briefly, I uh, think I'm 667 00:28:18.580 --> 00:28:21.020 paraphrasing what he's getting at with that. 668 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:23.260 Uh, but just to read a little bit further, 669 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:25.740 uh, from Mark's article, that's the image 670 00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:27.380 Blake Temple, a mathematician at the 671 00:28:27.380 --> 00:28:29.780 University of California Davis, uses to 672 00:28:29.780 --> 00:28:32.220 describe our um, best model of the universe. 673 00:28:32.220 --> 00:28:35.190 And it's a deeply uncomfortable. And 674 00:28:35.190 --> 00:28:37.670 so I think the way this storey evolves 675 00:28:37.910 --> 00:28:40.870 is that yes, we've uh, for 676 00:28:40.870 --> 00:28:42.590 30 years, almost 30 years. It's 677 00:28:42.590 --> 00:28:45.190 1998 when the 678 00:28:45.190 --> 00:28:47.990 accelerated expansion of the universe was 679 00:28:47.990 --> 00:28:50.790 discovered, uh, by 680 00:28:51.080 --> 00:28:53.750 uh, my colleague, um, Brian Schmidt and 681 00:28:54.520 --> 00:28:57.470 uh, uh, his actually competitors 682 00:28:57.470 --> 00:29:00.350 over the Pacific, uh, Saul Perlmutta 683 00:29:00.350 --> 00:29:03.210 and his team, uh, they jointly won the Nobel 684 00:29:03.210 --> 00:29:05.850 Prize in 2011 for that 685 00:29:05.850 --> 00:29:08.240 discovery that um, 686 00:29:09.050 --> 00:29:10.410 the expansion of the universe is 687 00:29:10.410 --> 00:29:13.210 accelerating. And so, um, the 688 00:29:13.210 --> 00:29:15.930 issue was to try and explain that. 689 00:29:15.930 --> 00:29:18.730 And that's why dark energy was 690 00:29:18.730 --> 00:29:21.370 introduced as a concept. 691 00:29:21.770 --> 00:29:24.530 Uh, an invisible, ah, outward 692 00:29:24.530 --> 00:29:27.290 pressure, um, that is part of space, 693 00:29:27.970 --> 00:29:30.480 uh, just pushes space and everything in it 694 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.080 apart. Um, and so 695 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:35.960 that's where we get our idea 696 00:29:36.360 --> 00:29:38.920 of dark energy from. But 697 00:29:39.090 --> 00:29:41.880 um, this um, mathematician, 698 00:29:42.030 --> 00:29:44.040 uh, Blake Temple has 699 00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:47.000 said, okay, maybe we're 700 00:29:47.560 --> 00:29:49.960 taking too simplistic a view 701 00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:53.000 of all this. Uh, and 702 00:29:53.270 --> 00:29:55.710 uh, I think it's a group of, uh, 703 00:29:56.120 --> 00:29:59.110 mathematicians led by Dr. Temple. Uh, 704 00:29:59.110 --> 00:30:00.860 they've got a paper in the Proceedings of the 705 00:30:00.860 --> 00:30:02.620 Royal Society. You don't get papers in there 706 00:30:02.620 --> 00:30:05.500 if they're rubbish. So, uh, there's 707 00:30:05.500 --> 00:30:07.180 something to think about there. And they've 708 00:30:07.180 --> 00:30:10.020 actually um, mathematically 709 00:30:10.020 --> 00:30:12.340 demonstrated that 710 00:30:12.820 --> 00:30:15.540 our, um, model of 711 00:30:15.780 --> 00:30:18.260 the expansion of the universe with dark 712 00:30:18.260 --> 00:30:21.220 energy in it is unstable. 713 00:30:21.950 --> 00:30:23.940 Uh, it's something that can't 714 00:30:24.660 --> 00:30:27.580 survive. And 715 00:30:28.300 --> 00:30:30.220 that almost, 716 00:30:30.890 --> 00:30:33.820 uh, means that you can rule it 717 00:30:33.820 --> 00:30:36.420 out, uh, in the world of 718 00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:38.780 physics, uh, if you've got a solution that's 719 00:30:38.780 --> 00:30:41.540 unstable, uh, then it 720 00:30:41.540 --> 00:30:43.900 shouldn't happen. And so, 721 00:30:44.090 --> 00:30:46.660 um, what um, uh, Dr. 722 00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:49.580 Temple and his associates are proposing 723 00:30:49.820 --> 00:30:52.620 is that we've got it wrong. Ah, and that 724 00:30:52.910 --> 00:30:55.550 uh, the. The model of the universe 725 00:30:56.910 --> 00:30:58.750 that we have, which 726 00:30:59.470 --> 00:31:02.470 assumes that matter is basically 727 00:31:02.470 --> 00:31:04.910 spread throughout the universe, the universe 728 00:31:04.910 --> 00:31:07.550 is isotropic, it's the same in all 729 00:31:07.550 --> 00:31:10.150 directions. Uh, is 730 00:31:10.150 --> 00:31:12.910 suggesting that that is also 731 00:31:13.070 --> 00:31:15.630 unstable. Um, and 732 00:31:15.710 --> 00:31:18.630 that really we have to take into account the 733 00:31:18.630 --> 00:31:20.660 fact that the universe is, isn't the same 734 00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:23.010 everywhere. Um, 735 00:31:23.850 --> 00:31:26.500 uh. I can't really 736 00:31:26.580 --> 00:31:28.980 go in deeply to the mathematics because I 737 00:31:29.140 --> 00:31:31.980 actually looked at the original 738 00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:34.940 paper. Um, and so I haven't followed 739 00:31:34.940 --> 00:31:37.650 the mathematical um, 740 00:31:37.650 --> 00:31:40.460 steps in the process. And between you and me, 741 00:31:40.460 --> 00:31:42.420 Andrew, I probably couldn't anyway, even if I 742 00:31:42.420 --> 00:31:45.140 looked at the paper because I do 743 00:31:45.140 --> 00:31:47.140 remember what some of the equations, 744 00:31:47.810 --> 00:31:50.020 um, that govern this sort of thing look like. 745 00:31:50.100 --> 00:31:52.820 And I do remember the emotional response 746 00:31:52.820 --> 00:31:55.660 that my psyche gets to 747 00:31:55.660 --> 00:31:58.580 them. But basically what they're 748 00:31:58.580 --> 00:32:00.180 saying is that 749 00:32:00.850 --> 00:32:02.980 uh, that 750 00:32:03.060 --> 00:32:05.940 accelerated expansion, um, 751 00:32:07.060 --> 00:32:09.220 is actually part of what 752 00:32:09.380 --> 00:32:12.180 Einstein suggested in the first 753 00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:15.080 place. And um, without the need 754 00:32:15.080 --> 00:32:17.240 to invoke dark energy, 755 00:32:18.210 --> 00:32:19.400 uh, and 756 00:32:21.800 --> 00:32:24.280 I'm simplifying, I guess, what, 757 00:32:24.570 --> 00:32:27.320 um. Mark, the author of this 758 00:32:27.320 --> 00:32:29.960 article has written. But the bottom line is 759 00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:32.830 that um, our view, uh, 760 00:32:33.080 --> 00:32:35.800 of the universe on its largest scale 761 00:32:36.280 --> 00:32:39.050 is probably naive. It's probably. 762 00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:42.400 We've perhaps oversimplified it and as a 763 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:44.840 result of that we've come out with the wrong 764 00:32:44.840 --> 00:32:47.810 answer. Um, I might just, uh. 765 00:32:47.840 --> 00:32:49.600 Andrew Dunkley: That's a really big call though, isn't it? 766 00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:52.480 Professor Fred Watson: It's a huge call. Absolutely huge call. 767 00:32:53.130 --> 00:32:53.190 Uh, 768 00:32:55.840 --> 00:32:58.480 let me just wind up with the last paragraph 769 00:32:58.480 --> 00:32:59.190 that, uh. 770 00:32:59.190 --> 00:33:00.400 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I was just looking at that 771 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:02.880 Professor Fred Watson: myself because that's the. Yeah. That Mark 772 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:05.080 Thompson's written. I think it really sums it 773 00:33:05.080 --> 00:33:07.720 up. Dark energy has never felt 774 00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:09.840 entirely comfortable to many scientists. 775 00:33:09.840 --> 00:33:12.420 Einstein him, introduced something very like 776 00:33:12.420 --> 00:33:13.940 it, which he called his cosmological 777 00:33:13.940 --> 00:33:16.260 constant, then subsequently called it his 778 00:33:16.260 --> 00:33:18.940 biggest blunder. It was quietly resurrected 779 00:33:18.940 --> 00:33:21.180 in the 1990s when the data demanded it. 780 00:33:21.180 --> 00:33:23.580 That's when the accelerated expansion was 781 00:33:23.580 --> 00:33:26.100 discovered. Now the mathematics might be 782 00:33:26.100 --> 00:33:27.860 telling us it was never needed in the first 783 00:33:27.860 --> 00:33:30.860 place. The universe, it turns out, may be 784 00:33:31.100 --> 00:33:33.820 stranger and simpler than we 785 00:33:33.820 --> 00:33:36.380 thought, only both at, ah, the same time. 786 00:33:36.460 --> 00:33:38.980 It's a great article. I encourage all our 787 00:33:38.980 --> 00:33:40.180 listeners to have a look at it. 788 00:33:40.180 --> 00:33:42.850 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, it's at the Universe Today dot com 789 00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:45.760 website or you can read the paper at the 790 00:33:45.760 --> 00:33:48.520 Proceedings of the Royal Society. But, uh, I 791 00:33:48.520 --> 00:33:50.520 dare say we haven't heard the last of this. 792 00:33:51.510 --> 00:33:53.400 Uh, and what if, what if we have got it 793 00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:56.110 wrong? What if dark energy is a furfy? Um, 794 00:33:57.320 --> 00:33:59.920 that's the big question. But, uh, they seem 795 00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:02.920 to be erring towards the probability 796 00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:05.720 that it is in fact a furphy. 797 00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.840 Professor Fred Watson: That's right. Um, you know, 798 00:34:09.020 --> 00:34:11.350 uh, I 799 00:34:11.430 --> 00:34:14.390 suspect that, um, this theory, 800 00:34:15.080 --> 00:34:17.950 uh, if you eliminate the need for 801 00:34:17.950 --> 00:34:20.110 dark energy, you might well eliminate the 802 00:34:20.110 --> 00:34:21.510 need for dark matter as well. 803 00:34:23.430 --> 00:34:25.590 Or it might turn out to be primordial black 804 00:34:25.590 --> 00:34:28.550 holes. We've covered two potential 805 00:34:29.590 --> 00:34:31.750 solutions, uh, to the dark matter problem in 806 00:34:32.230 --> 00:34:35.230 this episode. Uh, nobody can accuse us 807 00:34:35.230 --> 00:34:37.690 of not addressing the big question, Andrew. 808 00:34:37.690 --> 00:34:39.690 Andrew Dunkley: Absolutely. We just don't give them the big 809 00:34:39.690 --> 00:34:40.050 answers. 810 00:34:40.050 --> 00:34:41.930 Professor Fred Watson: We don't give them answers. No, that's right. 811 00:34:41.930 --> 00:34:44.010 Leave that to somebody else because we don't 812 00:34:44.010 --> 00:34:45.090 know. No, we don't. 813 00:34:45.090 --> 00:34:47.130 Andrew Dunkley: No, we don't. But, uh, no. Fascinating. 814 00:34:47.210 --> 00:34:49.250 Fascinating storey. A couple of fascinating 815 00:34:49.250 --> 00:34:52.010 storeys. Uh, and it all started with a big 816 00:34:52.010 --> 00:34:53.210 bang called Blue Origin. 817 00:34:54.010 --> 00:34:56.490 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, it did. That's right. It was a huge 818 00:34:56.490 --> 00:34:57.290 bang. It was. 819 00:34:58.090 --> 00:34:58.100 Generic: Um. 820 00:34:58.490 --> 00:35:00.010 Andrew Dunkley: That brings us to the end. Fred Watson, thank 821 00:35:00.010 --> 00:35:00.650 you very much. 822 00:35:01.770 --> 00:35:03.810 Professor Fred Watson: It's a pleasure, Andrew. Always good to have 823 00:35:03.810 --> 00:35:06.650 a chat and uh, bring to the forefront 824 00:35:06.650 --> 00:35:08.650 exactly what's happening in the deep depths 825 00:35:08.650 --> 00:35:08.960 of the. 826 00:35:09.510 --> 00:35:11.190 Andrew Dunkley: Indeed. And good to have you back too. 827 00:35:11.430 --> 00:35:12.070 Professor Fred Watson: Thank you. 828 00:35:12.390 --> 00:35:14.110 Andrew Dunkley: Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer M at 829 00:35:14.110 --> 00:35:16.670 large. Don't forget to visit us online at our 830 00:35:16.670 --> 00:35:18.510 website if you so desire. SpaceNightsPodcast. 831 00:35:18.510 --> 00:35:21.230 Uh, dot com. You can click on the 832 00:35:21.230 --> 00:35:23.990 AMA link at the top and ask us anything. 833 00:35:24.390 --> 00:35:27.350 Or ask, uh, anybody anything really. But we 834 00:35:27.350 --> 00:35:29.510 make comments. You can sign up for the 835 00:35:29.830 --> 00:35:32.390 Astronomy AstroDailyPod feed. Uh, you can 836 00:35:32.390 --> 00:35:34.190 become a supporter if you so desire. And 837 00:35:34.190 --> 00:35:36.470 don't forget to leave, uh, reviews at your 838 00:35:36.760 --> 00:35:39.040 favourite podcasting platform wherever you 839 00:35:39.040 --> 00:35:40.840 listen to us. Reviews are really useful 840 00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:43.320 unless they're bad. But then again, there are 841 00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:45.200 some people who like bad because they want to 842 00:35:45.200 --> 00:35:47.560 see what all the fuss is about. Uh, but don't 843 00:35:47.560 --> 00:35:49.560 do it unless you want to. I'm not going to 844 00:35:49.560 --> 00:35:52.040 tell you what to do. Um, but anyway, that's 845 00:35:52.040 --> 00:35:52.280 it. 846 00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:54.920 Thanks to Huw in the studio who couldn't be 847 00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:57.040 with us today because he's a furphy and from 848 00:35:57.040 --> 00:35:58.920 me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for your company 849 00:35:59.160 --> 00:36:01.160 on this edition. We'll catch you on the next 850 00:36:01.160 --> 00:36:03.720 episode of Space Nuts. Bye Bye. 851 00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:07.120 You've been listening to the Space Nuts 852 00:36:07.120 --> 00:36:07.720 Generic: podcast 853 00:36:09.460 --> 00:36:12.100 Andrew Dunkley: available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 854 00:36:12.180 --> 00:36:14.980 iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast 855 00:36:14.980 --> 00:36:17.300 player. You can also stream on demand at 856 00:36:17.300 --> 00:36:18.020 bytes. 857 00:36:18.020 --> 00:36:20.820 Professor Fred Watson: Com. This has been another quality podcast 858 00:36:20.820 --> 00:36:22.630 production from bytes. Com. 859 00:36:22.630 --> 00:36:24.490 Andrew Dunkley: Um.