WEBVTT 0 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:02.280 Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is 1 00:00:02.280 --> 00:00:04.760 Space Nuts. We talk astronomy and space 2 00:00:04.760 --> 00:00:07.160 science and sometimes we talk about things 3 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:09.000 that have got nothing to do with astronomy 4 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:11.520 and space science. You just never know. We 5 00:00:11.520 --> 00:00:13.560 throw up all sorts of things and sometimes we 6 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:15.200 throw up. Uh, today 7 00:00:16.720 --> 00:00:19.040 we will be talking about SpaceX. They're in 8 00:00:19.040 --> 00:00:21.800 the news again and it's all about the 9 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:23.360 numbers. And I'm not talking their share 10 00:00:23.360 --> 00:00:25.600 price. Well, actually, I probably will. Um, 11 00:00:26.260 --> 00:00:28.820 educating the public about the real moon. 12 00:00:29.460 --> 00:00:31.660 It's a, ah, it's an issue that NASA thinks 13 00:00:31.660 --> 00:00:33.980 needs to be dealt with. We've got a Three Eye 14 00:00:33.980 --> 00:00:36.260 Atlas update. Yes. You thought it was long 15 00:00:36.260 --> 00:00:38.740 gone, never to be spoken of again. Not true. 16 00:00:38.980 --> 00:00:41.250 Fascinating, uh, facts have been, uh, 17 00:00:41.250 --> 00:00:43.860 revealed about this amazing little rock 18 00:00:44.340 --> 00:00:44.740 and, 19 00:00:46.660 --> 00:00:47.060 Professor Fred Watson: and 20 00:00:47.380 --> 00:00:48.580 Andrew Dunkley: we might have to start again. 21 00:00:50.180 --> 00:00:52.300 Professor Fred Watson: I'm sorry, I can cut this bit out. Just cut 22 00:00:52.300 --> 00:00:55.220 that bit out. I'm sorry. M. Marty's just got 23 00:00:55.220 --> 00:00:56.980 back from walking the dog. Hi, Marty. 24 00:00:57.220 --> 00:00:58.560 Andrew Dunkley: We that bit in? 25 00:00:58.720 --> 00:00:59.240 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, yeah. 26 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:01.920 Andrew Dunkley: That's okay. And what was the last thing? 27 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:03.680 Uh, our, uh, son's death. 28 00:01:03.680 --> 00:01:05.040 Professor Fred Watson: I've already interrupted it. 29 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:06.040 Andrew Dunkley: G'. 30 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:06.240 Professor Fred Watson: Day. 31 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:08.160 Professor Fred Watson: Sorry. 32 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:09.160 Andrew Dunkley: You're right. 33 00:01:09.160 --> 00:01:11.040 Professor Fred Watson: It's all good. It's all good. 34 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:12.320 Andrew Dunkley: It's only the intro. 35 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:13.440 Professor Fred Watson: It's only the intro. 36 00:01:13.440 --> 00:01:16.440 Andrew Dunkley: Not an important bit. Anyway, 37 00:01:16.440 --> 00:01:18.240 whatever I was talking about is all coming up 38 00:01:18.240 --> 00:01:20.640 on this episode of space 39 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:21.280 nuts. 40 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:23.760 Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 41 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:26.720 10, 9. Ignition 42 00:01:26.720 --> 00:01:27.460 sequence start. 43 00:01:27.460 --> 00:01:28.632 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, space nuts. 44 00:01:28.699 --> 00:01:31.629 Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 4, 3, 2. 1, 2, 3, 4, 45 00:01:31.695 --> 00:01:33.660 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. 46 00:01:33.740 --> 00:01:34.940 Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts. 47 00:01:34.940 --> 00:01:36.780 Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report. It feels good. 48 00:01:37.580 --> 00:01:39.900 Andrew Dunkley: Takes me back to my old radio policy. If 49 00:01:39.900 --> 00:01:41.980 somebody walked into the studio, they were on 50 00:01:41.980 --> 00:01:44.500 the show and that's exactly what happened. 51 00:01:44.500 --> 00:01:46.700 And joining us aside from Marnie is Professor 52 00:01:46.700 --> 00:01:48.780 Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at large. 53 00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:49.500 Hello, Fred Watson. 54 00:01:50.300 --> 00:01:52.060 Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. Sorry. 55 00:01:53.260 --> 00:01:54.060 Andrew Dunkley: That's okay. 56 00:01:54.060 --> 00:01:54.500 Professor Fred Watson: I'm glad. 57 00:01:54.500 --> 00:01:57.060 Andrew Dunkley: I don't mind. I don't mind. I used to work 58 00:01:57.060 --> 00:01:59.940 with some radio people who got so annoyed, so 59 00:01:59.940 --> 00:02:02.200 annoyed if they were interrupted, any reason 60 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:05.160 whatsoever. We even had one guy who 61 00:02:05.320 --> 00:02:08.200 wouldn't even accept you looking 62 00:02:08.200 --> 00:02:09.480 at him through the window. 63 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:10.920 Professor Fred Watson: Really? 64 00:02:11.320 --> 00:02:13.880 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, he used to get really steamed 65 00:02:14.040 --> 00:02:16.120 Professor Fred Watson: from the producer suite through to the. 66 00:02:16.600 --> 00:02:17.640 Yeah, yeah. 67 00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:20.800 Andrew Dunkley: When he was in the studio, you weren't 68 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.440 allowed to go in and you weren't allowed to 69 00:02:23.440 --> 00:02:26.360 look at him through the window. Three solid 70 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:29.080 hours of isolation. Uh, yeah, it was, 71 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.520 um. And you know, sometimes you'd do it 72 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:32.120 accidentally. 73 00:02:32.200 --> 00:02:34.160 Professor Fred Watson: Of course you would. Yeah, yeah. Of course 74 00:02:34.160 --> 00:02:34.900 you would. Yeah. 75 00:02:34.900 --> 00:02:36.440 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, they were fun times. 76 00:02:36.600 --> 00:02:37.160 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. 77 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:37.880 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. 78 00:02:37.900 --> 00:02:40.440 Andrew Dunkley: Um, so Marnie's well and you're well and 79 00:02:40.440 --> 00:02:41.400 everybody's well. 80 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:43.080 Professor Fred Watson: We're doing all right. That's right. 81 00:02:43.799 --> 00:02:46.040 Andrew Dunkley: And something else that's doing well is 82 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:48.920 SpaceX. Probably not their share price, 83 00:02:48.920 --> 00:02:51.920 which, uh, is currently showing what they 84 00:02:51.920 --> 00:02:54.600 call correction, but it hit a 85 00:02:54.600 --> 00:02:56.680 massive high not long after the, 86 00:02:56.890 --> 00:02:59.480 um, company went public. But, uh, now, 87 00:03:00.010 --> 00:03:02.140 uh, what do they call it? Adjusting. Yeah, 88 00:03:02.140 --> 00:03:02.820 adjusting. 89 00:03:03.140 --> 00:03:05.860 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Um, those numbers are, 90 00:03:05.910 --> 00:03:08.760 um, a bit alien to me. Uh, 91 00:03:08.820 --> 00:03:11.380 as I've said before, I only understood. I 92 00:03:11.380 --> 00:03:13.180 only understand billions when they've got 93 00:03:13.180 --> 00:03:16.060 light years after them. Uh, but they have 94 00:03:16.060 --> 00:03:18.620 dollars after them. And I have watched, yes, 95 00:03:18.620 --> 00:03:20.900 I've watched the fortunes of, um, SpaceX 96 00:03:20.980 --> 00:03:23.940 since the IPO. See, I'm in the jargon there. 97 00:03:23.940 --> 00:03:26.610 The initial public year, uh, 98 00:03:26.660 --> 00:03:29.590 and uh, yes, you're right, it looks as though 99 00:03:29.590 --> 00:03:31.910 it's going to be back where it started. I 100 00:03:31.910 --> 00:03:33.230 think the way things are going, 101 00:03:34.190 --> 00:03:36.070 Andrew Dunkley: that's generally what happens. And sometimes 102 00:03:36.070 --> 00:03:38.470 they keep going below that and they bounce 103 00:03:38.470 --> 00:03:39.070 back later. 104 00:03:39.170 --> 00:03:39.270 Professor Fred Watson: Um, 105 00:03:42.110 --> 00:03:45.110 Andrew Dunkley: I find it really bizarre that we base our 106 00:03:45.110 --> 00:03:47.950 entire wealth and future on 107 00:03:47.950 --> 00:03:49.990 something as volatile as the stock market. 108 00:03:49.990 --> 00:03:52.710 I've never understood that side of the 109 00:03:52.710 --> 00:03:55.710 business world. And your whole retirement 110 00:03:55.710 --> 00:03:58.710 is based on this stuff? Uh, in 111 00:03:58.710 --> 00:04:00.670 some cases, and especially in Australia with 112 00:04:00.670 --> 00:04:03.630 our superannuation system and um, you 113 00:04:03.630 --> 00:04:06.070 know, you could just be. I've known people 114 00:04:06.070 --> 00:04:07.830 who were just about to retire and there'd 115 00:04:07.830 --> 00:04:09.910 been a big crash and they had to work another 116 00:04:09.910 --> 00:04:10.470 decade. 117 00:04:10.710 --> 00:04:11.510 Professor Fred Watson: It's just. Wow. 118 00:04:11.510 --> 00:04:13.110 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, Gosh, wow. 119 00:04:13.440 --> 00:04:14.470 Professor Fred Watson: M. Scary stuff. 120 00:04:14.470 --> 00:04:16.750 Andrew Dunkley: Anyway, we're not talking about that today. 121 00:04:16.750 --> 00:04:18.390 Even though we were talking about that today. 122 00:04:18.520 --> 00:04:20.870 Uh, we're talking about, uh, uh, something 123 00:04:20.870 --> 00:04:23.190 else to do with Elon Musk's company, 124 00:04:23.190 --> 00:04:25.510 SpaceX, and that is that they have, 125 00:04:25.780 --> 00:04:28.630 um, They've basically set a space launch 126 00:04:28.630 --> 00:04:29.030 record. 127 00:04:30.290 --> 00:04:32.530 Professor Fred Watson: They have. It's really quite a milestone when 128 00:04:32.530 --> 00:04:35.330 you think about it. What they have 129 00:04:35.650 --> 00:04:38.530 done, uh, is launched 130 00:04:38.850 --> 00:04:41.490 15,262 131 00:04:41.490 --> 00:04:44.322 satellites, uh, as of June 132 00:04:44.418 --> 00:04:46.650 12th. I mean, they're launching so many, uh, 133 00:04:47.490 --> 00:04:50.050 you've got to pick a date for it. But June 134 00:04:50.050 --> 00:04:53.010 12, 15,262 satellites. 135 00:04:53.330 --> 00:04:55.330 But here's the rub, here's why it's a record. 136 00:04:55.410 --> 00:04:58.290 The combined total of all 137 00:04:58.450 --> 00:05:00.370 other companies and organ 138 00:05:01.470 --> 00:05:04.430 since 1957, when Sputnik 1 was launched, 139 00:05:04.990 --> 00:05:07.390 is 15,138. 140 00:05:07.790 --> 00:05:10.630 So SpaceX has now launched more 141 00:05:10.630 --> 00:05:13.510 satellites than anyone else in 142 00:05:13.510 --> 00:05:16.270 history combined. Combined. 143 00:05:16.510 --> 00:05:19.270 Andrew Dunkley: Wow. So they've more or less doubled the 144 00:05:19.270 --> 00:05:22.110 number of satellites by themselves. 145 00:05:22.590 --> 00:05:24.530 Professor Fred Watson: That's right. Except a lot of those, uh, 146 00:05:24.530 --> 00:05:24.750 they're 147 00:05:24.750 --> 00:05:25.630 Andrew Dunkley: not up there anymore. 148 00:05:25.630 --> 00:05:27.070 Professor Fred Watson: A lot of those aren't up there anymore. I 149 00:05:27.070 --> 00:05:29.230 think they have. I think it's about 11,000 150 00:05:29.390 --> 00:05:31.310 operational Starlink satellites At the 151 00:05:31.310 --> 00:05:34.210 moment, but there's that have re entered and 152 00:05:34.210 --> 00:05:37.090 1,000 more that are not activated yet. Those 153 00:05:37.090 --> 00:05:39.850 are the sorts of numbers. Um, so 154 00:05:40.010 --> 00:05:41.690 it means uh, the total 155 00:05:42.890 --> 00:05:44.730 few days or a few weeks since I looked at 156 00:05:44.730 --> 00:05:47.530 this figure, but it's about 15,000 altogether 157 00:05:47.530 --> 00:05:49.970 is the number of operational satellites with 158 00:05:49.970 --> 00:05:52.490 of course huge numbers of ones that are no 159 00:05:52.490 --> 00:05:54.850 longer operational and even more numbers of 160 00:05:54.850 --> 00:05:57.050 bits of space junk that you can't track. 161 00:05:57.690 --> 00:06:00.450 But yes, what an extraordinary record. And of 162 00:06:00.450 --> 00:06:02.730 course what's brought this 163 00:06:03.370 --> 00:06:06.350 is uh, uh, what's brought SpaceX 164 00:06:06.350 --> 00:06:08.550 to this milestone is the Falcon 9 rocket 165 00:06:08.710 --> 00:06:11.430 which has been so successful, 166 00:06:11.930 --> 00:06:14.830 um, uh, they're now reused. I think 167 00:06:14.830 --> 00:06:17.470 the record is still 33 for the number of 168 00:06:17.470 --> 00:06:20.470 times a Falcon booster has been reused. That 169 00:06:20.470 --> 00:06:23.110 would have been unthinkable, uh, 170 00:06:23.190 --> 00:06:25.510 not much more than a decade ago. It was 2015 171 00:06:25.510 --> 00:06:27.350 when they launched, when they had the first 172 00:06:27.350 --> 00:06:29.750 recovery. Um, yes, ah, 173 00:06:30.150 --> 00:06:32.960 really quite remarkable. So there were 165 174 00:06:33.140 --> 00:06:36.070 falcon flights in 20. 25. That's 175 00:06:36.510 --> 00:06:38.610 uh, you, that's uh, three a week basically, 176 00:06:38.610 --> 00:06:39.090 isn't it? 177 00:06:39.090 --> 00:06:42.010 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah. That's incredible. And of 178 00:06:42.010 --> 00:06:43.550 course he's talking about that um, 179 00:06:43.970 --> 00:06:46.770 supercomputer satellite system that 180 00:06:46.850 --> 00:06:49.570 he wants to um, create and that's going to 181 00:06:49.570 --> 00:06:52.410 put many, many more up there if he goes ahead 182 00:06:52.410 --> 00:06:52.850 with it. 183 00:06:53.009 --> 00:06:55.440 Professor Fred Watson: It's a million. That's right. Which is uh, 184 00:06:55.730 --> 00:06:58.210 eye watering in many ways. 185 00:06:58.530 --> 00:07:00.250 It makes you shed tears if you're an 186 00:07:00.250 --> 00:07:02.930 astronomer. Um, what's going to speed 187 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:03.800 basically for 188 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:05.840 Andrew Dunkley: artificial intelligence systems, isn't it? 189 00:07:05.840 --> 00:07:08.120 Professor Fred Watson: It is, yes. It's they're orbiting the plans 190 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:10.840 for an orbital data centre with a million 191 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:13.880 linked satellites. And what will enable that 192 00:07:13.880 --> 00:07:15.960 or yes, what will facilitate it, perhaps 193 00:07:15.960 --> 00:07:18.760 that's the word is the next step, which is 194 00:07:18.760 --> 00:07:21.000 already, it's already been tested out, is 195 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:23.880 launching these satellites using uh, Starship 196 00:07:23.880 --> 00:07:26.040 rather than the Falcon, because Starship can, 197 00:07:26.200 --> 00:07:28.400 I mean falcons typically, they launch about 198 00:07:28.400 --> 00:07:30.840 20 at a time, 20 Starlink satellites at a 199 00:07:30.840 --> 00:07:32.870 time. With the Falcon 9 um, 200 00:07:33.320 --> 00:07:35.020 it's when you move to 201 00:07:35.820 --> 00:07:38.460 Starship you're talking about much, much 202 00:07:38.460 --> 00:07:40.780 higher numbers. I don't know how many they 203 00:07:40.780 --> 00:07:43.620 could launch but it's probably uh, well over 204 00:07:43.620 --> 00:07:46.540 100, maybe even in the 200s. Wow. 205 00:07:46.540 --> 00:07:48.420 Andrew Dunkley: I know astronomers wouldn't be happy with 206 00:07:48.420 --> 00:07:50.860 another million satellites up there crunching 207 00:07:51.020 --> 00:07:53.940 AI data. But um, interestingly 208 00:07:53.940 --> 00:07:56.660 enough we were talking to our son the other 209 00:07:56.660 --> 00:07:59.010 day who works in um, uh, 210 00:07:59.790 --> 00:08:01.420 I suppose you could call it the uh, 211 00:08:02.590 --> 00:08:05.150 gross retail area of electronics 212 00:08:06.110 --> 00:08:08.990 and he is frustrated at the 213 00:08:08.990 --> 00:08:11.270 moment because he'll get a client that wants 214 00:08:11.270 --> 00:08:14.110 quotes on various electronic Items, and 215 00:08:14.110 --> 00:08:15.910 we're talking smartphones, other smart 216 00:08:15.910 --> 00:08:18.790 devices. And then when the 217 00:08:18.790 --> 00:08:20.910 order comes in, the price has been hiked 218 00:08:21.150 --> 00:08:23.830 because of a lack of random 219 00:08:23.830 --> 00:08:26.030 access memory available because it's being 220 00:08:26.030 --> 00:08:27.990 chewed up by AI companies. 221 00:08:27.990 --> 00:08:28.750 Professor Fred Watson: Oh, interesting. 222 00:08:28.910 --> 00:08:31.460 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. So there's a world shortage 223 00:08:31.690 --> 00:08:34.170 of, um, RAM and DRAM and a few other, 224 00:08:35.680 --> 00:08:38.170 um, memory chips that are required for 225 00:08:38.170 --> 00:08:40.650 household devices like computers, 226 00:08:41.620 --> 00:08:44.090 um, because they're all being 227 00:08:44.730 --> 00:08:47.450 eaten up by these, uh, AI facilities. 228 00:08:48.250 --> 00:08:49.930 It's a bit of a problem at the moment. 229 00:08:50.970 --> 00:08:53.090 Professor Fred Watson: It's a good point. It hadn't occurred to me 230 00:08:53.090 --> 00:08:54.810 that there might be a shortage of that sort 231 00:08:54.810 --> 00:08:57.050 Andrew Dunkley: of thing because, well, and it's hitting the 232 00:08:57.050 --> 00:08:59.210 household market. People who want to buy a 233 00:08:59.210 --> 00:09:01.850 computer for themselves at home, uh, facing 234 00:09:01.930 --> 00:09:03.910 price hikes because of this. So 235 00:09:04.710 --> 00:09:07.710 it's a thing. It is a thing. So maybe, 236 00:09:07.710 --> 00:09:10.350 maybe Elon's found a way around that, or 237 00:09:10.350 --> 00:09:12.030 maybe he's getting all the chips. I don't 238 00:09:12.030 --> 00:09:12.270 know. 239 00:09:12.270 --> 00:09:14.910 Professor Fred Watson: Well, I think that's what it is. Uh, yeah. If 240 00:09:14.910 --> 00:09:17.650 the AI companies have got first dibs on, uh, 241 00:09:18.070 --> 00:09:20.470 the memories for the data centres, that's 242 00:09:20.470 --> 00:09:21.830 where it's all going to happen. Yes. 243 00:09:23.350 --> 00:09:24.790 Andrew Dunkley: It's like when I was at school, Fred Watson, 244 00:09:24.790 --> 00:09:26.230 you don't share your chips. 245 00:09:29.430 --> 00:09:31.750 Professor Fred Watson: You were lucky to have chips. We didn't have 246 00:09:31.750 --> 00:09:33.110 chips when we were at school. 247 00:09:33.350 --> 00:09:34.870 Andrew Dunkley: Just to live in a tin pan. 248 00:09:36.930 --> 00:09:37.570 Professor Fred Watson: Oh, boy. 249 00:09:37.890 --> 00:09:40.730 Andrew Dunkley: So, yeah, things are, um, steadily moving 250 00:09:40.730 --> 00:09:43.250 along for SpaceX and they've achieved 251 00:09:43.490 --> 00:09:46.170 a major milestone, which probably won't stop 252 00:09:46.170 --> 00:09:48.450 there, but they're 100 ahead of the 253 00:09:48.450 --> 00:09:51.170 collective number of satellites put into 254 00:09:51.250 --> 00:09:53.890 orbit around Earth since 1957. 255 00:09:54.700 --> 00:09:57.210 Um, yeah, they've doubled the number and 256 00:09:57.210 --> 00:09:59.970 some. And probably will continue. 257 00:10:00.930 --> 00:10:03.410 This is Space Nuts, Andrew Dunkley here with 258 00:10:03.410 --> 00:10:04.930 Professor Fred Watson Watson. 259 00:10:07.580 --> 00:10:08.820 Professor Fred Watson: Roger, your lab is right here. 260 00:10:08.820 --> 00:10:10.300 Professor Fred Watson: Also Space Nuts. 261 00:10:10.380 --> 00:10:13.260 Andrew Dunkley: Our next storey takes us to the moon. 262 00:10:13.260 --> 00:10:15.180 It's kind of in fashion again now, 263 00:10:15.180 --> 00:10:17.180 particularly with the Artemis programme and, 264 00:10:17.260 --> 00:10:19.860 uh, the recent mission to fling people around 265 00:10:19.860 --> 00:10:21.900 the moon and take some pretty pictures and 266 00:10:22.060 --> 00:10:23.780 witness some of the amazing things that 267 00:10:23.780 --> 00:10:26.700 happen on the moon. However, 268 00:10:27.180 --> 00:10:29.860 NASA believes that things need to be done 269 00:10:29.860 --> 00:10:32.540 properly in terms of educating the public. 270 00:10:33.100 --> 00:10:34.220 Why is this happening? 271 00:10:35.520 --> 00:10:38.270 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, it's, uh, the initiative of a 272 00:10:38.430 --> 00:10:40.990 professor of astronomy and planetary 273 00:10:41.630 --> 00:10:43.350 sciences in the Department of Physics at the 274 00:10:43.350 --> 00:10:45.750 University of Central Florida, whose name is 275 00:10:45.750 --> 00:10:48.110 Daniel Britt, uh, and 276 00:10:48.990 --> 00:10:51.790 he's very well up, uh, in 277 00:10:51.790 --> 00:10:53.710 what it's like on the moon because he's 278 00:10:54.270 --> 00:10:56.390 director, uh, of the Centre for Lunar and 279 00:10:56.390 --> 00:10:58.910 Asteroid Surface Science. So 280 00:10:59.470 --> 00:11:02.230 they had, um, what they call a Space 281 00:11:02.230 --> 00:11:04.910 Resources Roundtable earlier this month, 282 00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:07.614 uh, and this month being June uh, 20, 283 00:11:07.715 --> 00:11:10.650 26, uh, at the Colorado School of Mines. 284 00:11:10.650 --> 00:11:12.490 And that sort of gives you a bit of an idea 285 00:11:12.490 --> 00:11:13.690 where this is coming from. 286 00:11:13.850 --> 00:11:14.320 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. 287 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:16.700 Professor Fred Watson: Um, and uh. So um, 288 00:11:16.700 --> 00:11:19.210 Professor Britt, uh, Daniel Britt, 289 00:11:19.420 --> 00:11:21.600 uh, says um. 290 00:11:22.410 --> 00:11:25.330 And really to put this in a nutshell, to put 291 00:11:25.330 --> 00:11:27.730 the nub of the storey, he says, I wish I 292 00:11:27.730 --> 00:11:29.810 could say that engineers and managers know 293 00:11:29.810 --> 00:11:32.770 better, but they don't. We are training a 294 00:11:32.770 --> 00:11:35.770 generation of engineers not to worry about 295 00:11:36.170 --> 00:11:39.000 terrain. If the artists are 296 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:40.960 getting it wrong when they depict the moon, 297 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:43.920 it's our fault. Let's stop fooling ourselves. 298 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:47.720 Um, and basically he went on 299 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:50.560 to complain uh, about a number 300 00:11:50.880 --> 00:11:53.440 of uh, the sort of artists 301 00:11:54.160 --> 00:11:56.800 representations of the lunar 302 00:11:56.960 --> 00:11:59.240 surface, um, which are 303 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:02.240 promulgated by commercial space ventures, 304 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:04.800 but also NASA. Um, and 305 00:12:04.800 --> 00:12:07.640 I've actually had the same thought. 306 00:12:07.640 --> 00:12:10.500 I've seen some of NASA's artists impressions 307 00:12:10.500 --> 00:12:12.580 of you know, a base on the moon and what they 308 00:12:12.580 --> 00:12:15.060 look like and thought that all looks very, 309 00:12:15.060 --> 00:12:18.020 very neat and tidy. Uh, very neat 310 00:12:18.020 --> 00:12:20.690 and tidy indeed. And so um, what Daniel, uh, 311 00:12:21.140 --> 00:12:23.180 Britt has done is kind of 312 00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:26.180 highlighted uh, all the things that are wrong 313 00:12:26.180 --> 00:12:28.460 with those pictures that might actually 314 00:12:28.540 --> 00:12:31.260 transform the way we think about the lunar 315 00:12:31.260 --> 00:12:31.820 surface. 316 00:12:32.780 --> 00:12:35.060 Andrew Dunkley: Why is that such a problem though? Um, 317 00:12:35.420 --> 00:12:38.340 is this going to um. You know, what 318 00:12:38.340 --> 00:12:38.940 does it change? 319 00:12:39.610 --> 00:12:42.250 Professor Fred Watson: So um. The reality 320 00:12:42.250 --> 00:12:45.010 is different from uh, what we 321 00:12:45.010 --> 00:12:47.850 depict. So if you're always depicting the 322 00:12:47.850 --> 00:12:49.570 lunar surface as something neat and tidy 323 00:12:49.570 --> 00:12:51.890 then. And you're training your engineers who 324 00:12:51.890 --> 00:12:53.690 are building the spacecraft and doing all the 325 00:12:53.690 --> 00:12:55.249 rest, you know, setting up all the 326 00:12:55.249 --> 00:12:57.690 infrastructure and they've got a false idea 327 00:12:57.690 --> 00:13:00.250 of what it's like. And so what um, Daniel 328 00:13:00.250 --> 00:13:02.410 Britt has done is highlighted 329 00:13:03.610 --> 00:13:05.900 some uh, of the, you know, some of the 330 00:13:05.900 --> 00:13:08.660 problems uh in those illustrations starting 331 00:13:08.660 --> 00:13:11.460 with small craters and the 332 00:13:11.460 --> 00:13:14.240 lunar dust. Uh, and um, 333 00:13:14.260 --> 00:13:16.940 it goes on to talk about dirty astronauts, 334 00:13:16.940 --> 00:13:19.700 dirty equipment and dirty habitats and you've 335 00:13:19.700 --> 00:13:22.420 only to look at um, some of the 336 00:13:22.500 --> 00:13:25.180 imagery from the Apollo missions to see 337 00:13:25.180 --> 00:13:27.940 how dirty the astronauts get 338 00:13:27.940 --> 00:13:30.890 because that dust gets everywhere. It's 339 00:13:30.890 --> 00:13:33.870 uh, as it said, captioned to ah, one of 340 00:13:33.870 --> 00:13:36.490 um, uh, Daniel Britt's images. Dust is a fact 341 00:13:36.800 --> 00:13:39.040 of life in lunar ops. It gets everywhere. 342 00:13:39.670 --> 00:13:42.640 Uh, and so we've got the Apollo 343 00:13:42.640 --> 00:13:45.360 experience to judge from. Um. 344 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:48.640 And it's also 345 00:13:49.520 --> 00:13:52.240 going to be um, much more difficult 346 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:55.320 to cope with the dust uh in the 347 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:58.080 Apollo programmes because you're 348 00:13:58.530 --> 00:14:01.000 uh, in the south polar region of the moon. 349 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.440 That's where, sorry, not Apollo, Artemis, 350 00:14:03.810 --> 00:14:05.920 uh, Artemis is concentrating on the south 351 00:14:05.920 --> 00:14:08.700 polar region of the moon. And the. That 352 00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:11.580 means you've got a very Low sun angle and 353 00:14:12.540 --> 00:14:15.420 the dust is just going to be everywhere. 354 00:14:15.550 --> 00:14:18.150 Uh, and you know, um, 355 00:14:18.670 --> 00:14:21.620 uh, so you might have interference from 356 00:14:21.620 --> 00:14:24.579 the dust, but also, um, if 357 00:14:24.579 --> 00:14:27.380 you're walking around on the surface, it's 358 00:14:27.380 --> 00:14:29.380 going to be very easy to miss because of the 359 00:14:29.380 --> 00:14:31.140 lower sun angle. The sun's always in your 360 00:14:31.140 --> 00:14:33.020 eyes. It's going to be very easy to miss 361 00:14:33.100 --> 00:14:35.540 little craters and there are small craters 362 00:14:35.540 --> 00:14:38.270 everywhere. Um, uh, it's 363 00:14:39.620 --> 00:14:42.220 a really difficult environment in that 364 00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:44.900 regard. Uh, and he goes on to 365 00:14:45.150 --> 00:14:47.780 um, you know, to sort of spot, 366 00:14:48.590 --> 00:14:50.420 uh, the other things that are going to be 367 00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:52.170 problematic. Um, 368 00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:55.620 uh, one of them is the number of boulders 369 00:14:55.620 --> 00:14:57.630 there are as well on the surface. Um, 370 00:14:58.740 --> 00:15:00.900 um, it's got a. 371 00:15:02.340 --> 00:15:05.030 The Apollo images, he 372 00:15:05.030 --> 00:15:07.790 says, uh, were taken down sun. 373 00:15:07.790 --> 00:15:09.590 In other words, you're looking with the sun 374 00:15:09.590 --> 00:15:12.590 behind you. Uh, and that gives. 375 00:15:12.590 --> 00:15:14.630 It sort of hides all the shadows of all the 376 00:15:14.630 --> 00:15:16.430 boulders and things that were lying around. 377 00:15:17.040 --> 00:15:18.910 Um, I mean we've talked before about how 378 00:15:18.910 --> 00:15:21.910 lucky Apollo 11 was because there were, you 379 00:15:21.910 --> 00:15:24.270 know, when Neil Armstrong was bringing the 380 00:15:24.350 --> 00:15:27.030 lunar module down onto the surface, uh, 381 00:15:27.390 --> 00:15:29.310 all he could see was all these boulders. 382 00:15:31.380 --> 00:15:34.340 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, And I'm just looking at a 383 00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:36.740 real image of Apollo 15 384 00:15:36.980 --> 00:15:39.620 and they had a dicey landing as well. 385 00:15:39.780 --> 00:15:42.340 They actually landed on a piece of 386 00:15:42.420 --> 00:15:45.220 ground at an 11 degree tilt. 387 00:15:45.620 --> 00:15:48.100 Professor Fred Watson: That's correct, yes. That's one of the other 388 00:15:48.100 --> 00:15:50.580 issues that he's highlighted is the tilt, 389 00:15:51.150 --> 00:15:54.140 uh, uh, of the terrain that you 390 00:15:54.140 --> 00:15:56.820 land on. Um, Apollo 14, 7 degrees, 391 00:15:56.820 --> 00:15:59.700 Apollo 15, 11 degrees. And yes, that's quite 392 00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:02.680 a serious angle. It is. That does not, 393 00:16:02.850 --> 00:16:05.680 um, go well if you've got a 394 00:16:05.680 --> 00:16:08.680 very tall landing craft, which is what the 395 00:16:10.520 --> 00:16:13.280 SpaceX's starship will be. Starship? The 396 00:16:13.280 --> 00:16:16.160 Lunar Lander. Um, that's one of the 397 00:16:16.160 --> 00:16:18.480 two, um, landing vehicles that are currently 398 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.160 being considered by NASA. That's. I can't 399 00:16:21.160 --> 00:16:22.960 remember what it is. I think it's 37 metres 400 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:25.360 tall. It might be even taller than that. It's 401 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:27.640 enormous. And if you put that on an 11 degree 402 00:16:27.640 --> 00:16:30.130 tilt, you're going to be worried that the 403 00:16:30.130 --> 00:16:32.010 things are going to fall over, which will not 404 00:16:32.010 --> 00:16:32.610 be good news. 405 00:16:32.690 --> 00:16:34.290 Andrew Dunkley: You're going to have to pick a really, really 406 00:16:34.290 --> 00:16:37.010 good spot and they're few and far between on 407 00:16:37.010 --> 00:16:39.370 the moon. And I can imagine, you know, a 408 00:16:39.370 --> 00:16:42.340 vertical landing craft like 409 00:16:42.340 --> 00:16:45.210 uh, that a very tall rocket is going to blast 410 00:16:45.210 --> 00:16:47.410 up dust like nothing else. 411 00:16:47.490 --> 00:16:50.170 Professor Fred Watson: Yep, that's right. Uh, and in fact I think 412 00:16:50.170 --> 00:16:52.170 there's a quote from one of the Apollo 413 00:16:52.170 --> 00:16:55.090 astronauts because of the amount of dust that 414 00:16:55.090 --> 00:16:57.530 was being blown up by their exhaust as they 415 00:16:57.530 --> 00:16:59.170 were trying to land, they couldn't actually 416 00:16:59.790 --> 00:17:02.430 sea. Uh, where. Where to. 417 00:17:02.510 --> 00:17:04.510 Where. Where was the safest landing 418 00:17:05.150 --> 00:17:05.550 point. 419 00:17:06.030 --> 00:17:06.179 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. 420 00:17:06.179 --> 00:17:07.990 Andrew Dunkley: Ah, that's scary, isn't it? And not to 421 00:17:07.990 --> 00:17:10.990 mention that dust is one of the big perils 422 00:17:10.990 --> 00:17:11.870 of electronics. 423 00:17:12.190 --> 00:17:13.310 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. 424 00:17:13.390 --> 00:17:16.070 Andrew Dunkley: You don't want dust getting into anything. In 425 00:17:16.070 --> 00:17:18.030 fact, I think in the early days of home 426 00:17:18.030 --> 00:17:20.750 computing, one of the big problems was, 427 00:17:20.959 --> 00:17:22.750 uh, you had to keep your computer cool, but 428 00:17:22.750 --> 00:17:25.110 in doing so, you're sucking dust into the, 429 00:17:25.110 --> 00:17:27.190 into the machine and that's. That could get 430 00:17:27.190 --> 00:17:29.990 into the processes and the. And the 431 00:17:29.990 --> 00:17:32.850 drives and. Yeah, all sorts of trouble. In 432 00:17:32.850 --> 00:17:35.720 fact, um, if you ever open up a home, 433 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:37.810 um, computer, particularly an old desktop, 434 00:17:38.210 --> 00:17:40.370 first thing you notice is all the dust. 435 00:17:40.370 --> 00:17:42.650 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's correct, yes. Which has been 436 00:17:42.650 --> 00:17:44.960 sucked in. Exactly. As you've said. Um, 437 00:17:46.130 --> 00:17:48.330 if I can. There's a couple of paragraphs that 438 00:17:48.330 --> 00:17:50.970 really sum up, ah, Daniel Britt's view of all 439 00:17:50.970 --> 00:17:53.330 this. And remember, he's a professor of lunar 440 00:17:53.330 --> 00:17:55.890 surfaces, so he knows what he's doing. Yes, 441 00:17:55.890 --> 00:17:58.010 he says these are artists impressions, but 442 00:17:58.010 --> 00:17:59.890 somebody is telling the artist what to draw. 443 00:17:59.970 --> 00:18:02.450 I love the idea of landing and operating on a 444 00:18:02.450 --> 00:18:04.470 moon without dust, small craters and rough 445 00:18:04.470 --> 00:18:07.470 terrain. However, we see the misconception 446 00:18:07.470 --> 00:18:09.950 of a flat, gentle moon everywhere. Commercial 447 00:18:09.950 --> 00:18:12.590 providers are just as bad. No dust, almost no 448 00:18:12.590 --> 00:18:14.310 small craters, no tipping problems. 449 00:18:14.310 --> 00:18:16.650 Yes, these are artists impressions and, uh, 450 00:18:16.670 --> 00:18:19.269 getting it wrong. NASA knows better. All 451 00:18:19.269 --> 00:18:20.990 these people should know better. But don't 452 00:18:20.990 --> 00:18:22.910 let's not fool the public. We owe them better 453 00:18:22.910 --> 00:18:25.110 data. He's really having a go about it, isn't 454 00:18:25.110 --> 00:18:25.390 he? 455 00:18:25.390 --> 00:18:26.950 Andrew Dunkley: Well, I think he's got a good point. 456 00:18:26.950 --> 00:18:28.870 Professor Fred Watson: He's got a very good point. Yes, he has 457 00:18:28.870 --> 00:18:29.580 indeed. Yeah. 458 00:18:29.760 --> 00:18:32.100 Andrew Dunkley: Um, you know, we might go on holiday there 459 00:18:32.100 --> 00:18:33.820 one day and we'd turn up and go, this place 460 00:18:33.820 --> 00:18:35.400 is crap, it's a dump. Um, 461 00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:38.860 where's the pool? Oh, yeah, 462 00:18:39.020 --> 00:18:41.660 yeah, it was in the 463 00:18:41.660 --> 00:18:44.340 brochure. Um, but no, I see his 464 00:18:44.340 --> 00:18:47.180 point. And, um. Yeah, I suppose 465 00:18:47.180 --> 00:18:49.660 organisations like NASA who have 466 00:18:50.060 --> 00:18:52.860 basically led the race to the moon since 467 00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:55.530 the year Dot. Um, yeah, probably should. 468 00:18:55.600 --> 00:18:58.360 Should just take a bit of notice of what he's 469 00:18:58.360 --> 00:19:01.200 saying. Yeah, for sure. If you'd like to 470 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:03.200 cheque that storey out, it's a good read. 471 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:04.960 It's@space.com. 472 00:19:06.350 --> 00:19:07.800 uh, let's move straight on to our next 473 00:19:07.800 --> 00:19:08.400 storey, Fred Watson. 474 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:11.280 And this one is, uh. Oh, gosh, something 475 00:19:11.280 --> 00:19:13.520 we've spoken about, uh, several times 476 00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:15.400 recently because it was a pretty exciting 477 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.000 find. That was Comet, uh, 3i 478 00:19:18.080 --> 00:19:20.800 Atlas. What brings it back to the 479 00:19:20.800 --> 00:19:22.800 fore? I thought it was all dealt with and 480 00:19:22.800 --> 00:19:25.660 gone and on its way to wherever the heck it's 481 00:19:25.660 --> 00:19:28.580 headed. But it's, it's 482 00:19:28.580 --> 00:19:29.340 back in the news. 483 00:19:29.580 --> 00:19:31.540 Professor Fred Watson: It is back in the news and I think it's back 484 00:19:31.540 --> 00:19:33.580 in the news. Um, this might be the. 485 00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:37.340 Well who. Never say never but I 486 00:19:37.340 --> 00:19:39.100 think this might be the last major paper 487 00:19:39.580 --> 00:19:42.300 about UH3i Atlas 488 00:19:42.380 --> 00:19:45.220 and its composition and what 489 00:19:45.220 --> 00:19:47.700 we now know about it. And it comes from a 490 00:19:47.700 --> 00:19:50.460 number of studies principally 491 00:19:50.460 --> 00:19:53.020 using uh the Webb Telescope. 492 00:19:54.600 --> 00:19:57.420 Uh these are analyses of 493 00:19:57.420 --> 00:19:59.660 the outgassing, the material that's 494 00:19:59.660 --> 00:20:02.540 outgassing being outgassed uh from 495 00:20:02.540 --> 00:20:05.340 3i atlas surface. Remember it's ah, an 496 00:20:05.340 --> 00:20:07.340 interstellar asteroid. It has entered the 497 00:20:07.340 --> 00:20:09.860 solar system. Last October I think was when 498 00:20:09.860 --> 00:20:12.420 it was discovered uh zooming through at 499 00:20:12.420 --> 00:20:14.700 speeds in the region of 60 kilometres per 500 00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:16.540 second which is too fast for it to belong to 501 00:20:16.540 --> 00:20:18.620 the solar system. And it's now on its way 502 00:20:18.620 --> 00:20:21.620 out. Uh but uh, a lot of um, 503 00:20:21.830 --> 00:20:23.430 resources have been used to observe it 504 00:20:23.430 --> 00:20:25.870 because it's a free gift from another solar 505 00:20:25.870 --> 00:20:28.710 system. The fact that we've got uh this 506 00:20:28.950 --> 00:20:31.390 object coming through and so the 507 00:20:31.390 --> 00:20:33.910 analyses that have been done are 508 00:20:34.790 --> 00:20:37.510 really very very interesting uh 509 00:20:37.510 --> 00:20:40.070 in terms of what they tell us about 510 00:20:41.190 --> 00:20:44.190 the wide blue yonder, about the chemical 511 00:20:44.190 --> 00:20:47.110 composition of solar systems other 512 00:20:47.110 --> 00:20:49.860 than our own. And and in 513 00:20:50.100 --> 00:20:52.740 the same breath it sort of tells us 514 00:20:53.420 --> 00:20:56.300 uh a bit more about our own solar 515 00:20:56.300 --> 00:20:59.080 system, how unusual it might be uh 516 00:20:59.380 --> 00:21:02.140 because this is something quite 517 00:21:02.140 --> 00:21:05.019 different. Um so the two 518 00:21:05.019 --> 00:21:07.820 studies involved, one which was conducted 519 00:21:07.820 --> 00:21:10.500 using the Webb Telescope, uh and the other 520 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:13.020 uh which was led by um an astronomer from the 521 00:21:13.020 --> 00:21:15.220 University of Edinburgh uh which was one of 522 00:21:15.220 --> 00:21:18.100 my alma maters, uh, uh that was 523 00:21:18.100 --> 00:21:20.840 using the Very Large Telescope, the vlt uh at 524 00:21:20.840 --> 00:21:23.760 Cerro Paranal in Chile, the European 525 00:21:23.760 --> 00:21:26.160 Southern Observatory's major facility. 526 00:21:26.800 --> 00:21:29.280 And what they've done is essentially looked 527 00:21:29.280 --> 00:21:32.150 at isotope ratios. Uh 528 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.160 they've looked in particular molecules, 529 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:37.760 particular molecules like H2O water, 530 00:21:38.080 --> 00:21:40.760 CO2, carbon dioxide, CO, carbon 531 00:21:40.760 --> 00:21:42.620 monoxide and um 532 00:21:43.840 --> 00:21:46.640 there's a plot uh which is on. It's actually 533 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.780 basically NASA's press release about this. Uh 534 00:21:49.780 --> 00:21:52.400 the press release is titled NASA's Webb Find 535 00:21:52.620 --> 00:21:55.500 Clues to Ancient Distant Origin of Comet 3i 536 00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:57.980 Atlas. And the plot shows 537 00:21:58.620 --> 00:22:01.460 sort of the um isotope ratios. 538 00:22:01.460 --> 00:22:03.620 It's basically too small for me to read the 539 00:22:03.620 --> 00:22:06.140 individual numbers on it. Um but 540 00:22:06.300 --> 00:22:08.380 for uh all the 541 00:22:09.040 --> 00:22:11.940 um solar system comets that have 542 00:22:11.940 --> 00:22:14.430 been observed, uh including I notice uh 543 00:22:14.780 --> 00:22:17.700 Comet Hartley 2 which is uh one discovered by 544 00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:20.690 my old friend and colleague Malcolm Hartley, 545 00:22:20.690 --> 00:22:22.860 uh it was visited by a spacecraft a number of 546 00:22:22.860 --> 00:22:25.000 years ago. He became a, an international 547 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:27.160 celebrity because of that, we, uh, used to 548 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:28.920 work together at the Schmidt UK Schmidt 549 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:31.770 telescope. But that's one of the, um, 550 00:22:31.800 --> 00:22:33.800 solar system comets that they highlight in 551 00:22:33.800 --> 00:22:36.360 this plot. And you can see that the various, 552 00:22:36.910 --> 00:22:39.759 um, aspects, notably what are called 553 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.520 heavy carbon and heavy hydrogen. So these are 554 00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:45.160 different isotopes of carbon and hydrogen. 555 00:22:45.320 --> 00:22:48.240 You can see where they sit in 556 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.240 the solar system, this whole line of 557 00:22:51.910 --> 00:22:54.710 red circles which are, uh, representations on 558 00:22:54.710 --> 00:22:57.510 the plot, um, all in a neat, 559 00:22:57.510 --> 00:23:00.350 neatish line anyway. And then way off 560 00:23:00.350 --> 00:23:02.710 to the right at, uh, much higher 561 00:23:02.870 --> 00:23:05.870 ratios of carbon 12 to carbon 13 and much 562 00:23:05.870 --> 00:23:08.690 higher ratios of heavy hydrogen, uh, 563 00:23:08.870 --> 00:23:11.390 to normal, uh, hydrogen, which we've talked 564 00:23:11.390 --> 00:23:14.110 about a lot. But way off to the right is 565 00:23:14.110 --> 00:23:15.190 3i atlas. 566 00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:18.000 Andrew Dunkley: Um, so that's saying the concentrations are, 567 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:19.150 uh, more significant. 568 00:23:20.030 --> 00:23:22.670 Professor Fred Watson: They're very, very different, different 569 00:23:22.750 --> 00:23:25.390 concentrations of the isotopes. Um, 570 00:23:26.670 --> 00:23:29.150 and that basically, 571 00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:33.390 uh, suggests, um, some of the issues 572 00:23:33.790 --> 00:23:36.750 on the history, uh, of 573 00:23:38.190 --> 00:23:40.670 the comet. I might read a little bit because 574 00:23:40.670 --> 00:23:43.230 there's some very nice summaries here on the 575 00:23:43.230 --> 00:23:45.170 press release. Um, 576 00:23:46.110 --> 00:23:48.590 so one of the M instruments used on the web 577 00:23:48.590 --> 00:23:51.390 showed only traces of carbon 13 compared to 578 00:23:51.390 --> 00:23:54.110 lighter weight carbon 12. This points to a 579 00:23:54.110 --> 00:23:56.990 very old origin for 3i atlas 580 00:23:57.150 --> 00:23:59.230 as stellar systems become enriched with 581 00:23:59.230 --> 00:24:01.710 carbon 13 over time as generations of stars 582 00:24:01.710 --> 00:24:03.870 are born and die in the galaxy. That's why 583 00:24:03.870 --> 00:24:06.110 there are higher levels of carbon 13 in our 584 00:24:06.110 --> 00:24:08.310 system around our sun, which formed 585 00:24:08.310 --> 00:24:10.990 relatively recently, 4.5 billion 586 00:24:11.070 --> 00:24:13.480 years ago. Um, it, 587 00:24:13.750 --> 00:24:16.400 uh, also says, uh, there were 588 00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:18.800 exceptionally high levels of deuterium, about 589 00:24:18.800 --> 00:24:20.960 30 times more than seen in solar system 590 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:23.880 comets. This implies that 3i Atlas 591 00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:26.440 may have originated in a very cold system 592 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:28.750 much earlier in the history of our, ah, 593 00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:31.680 galaxy. Um, uh, so these 594 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:34.070 are all clues about, uh, 595 00:24:34.520 --> 00:24:36.920 the origin. And, uh, once again, reading from 596 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:38.360 the press release, the research team 597 00:24:38.360 --> 00:24:41.160 estimates that 3i Atlas could have formed 598 00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:43.960 as long as 10 to 12 billion years 599 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:44.280 ago. 600 00:24:44.580 --> 00:24:44.980 Professor Fred Watson: Wow. 601 00:24:45.140 --> 00:24:47.660 Professor Fred Watson: During the universe's cosmic noon, when star 602 00:24:47.660 --> 00:24:50.180 formation was at its height, its young 603 00:24:50.180 --> 00:24:53.060 origin solar system was likely ensconced 604 00:24:53.060 --> 00:24:55.620 in a relatively cold, dense cloud. 605 00:24:56.020 --> 00:24:58.980 The abundance of heavy water shows that 3i 606 00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:01.980 Atlas spent its formative years in a deeply 607 00:25:01.980 --> 00:25:04.740 frozen state. This is quite extraordinary. 608 00:25:05.140 --> 00:25:05.700 Andrew Dunkley: Amazing. 609 00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:06.000 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Ah, 610 00:25:07.780 --> 00:25:09.540 Andrew Dunkley: it's come from a place that was very 611 00:25:09.540 --> 00:25:11.970 different to now. Um, and, and 612 00:25:13.890 --> 00:25:16.690 I guess that's the difference in 613 00:25:16.690 --> 00:25:18.850 terms of the time scales we're talking about 614 00:25:19.090 --> 00:25:21.090 what it was like then, what it's like now. 615 00:25:21.570 --> 00:25:22.530 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. 616 00:25:22.850 --> 00:25:24.450 Andrew Dunkley: It's like a little time machine. 617 00:25:24.770 --> 00:25:27.769 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Uh, but yes, exactly. It's a 618 00:25:27.769 --> 00:25:30.210 time capsule. It's a lovely time capsule. 619 00:25:30.500 --> 00:25:33.330 Um, in uh, the way it's been analysed, 620 00:25:33.810 --> 00:25:35.730 I'd have to say I take my hat off to all 621 00:25:35.730 --> 00:25:38.650 these scientists for the imagination that's 622 00:25:38.650 --> 00:25:40.950 been used in, in devising the experiments 623 00:25:40.950 --> 00:25:42.950 that have been developed. These observations 624 00:25:42.950 --> 00:25:45.870 tell us, uh, quite unequivocal things about 625 00:25:45.870 --> 00:25:48.230 this object which we would not otherwise have 626 00:25:48.230 --> 00:25:50.710 known. And it again highlights 627 00:25:51.590 --> 00:25:54.310 just how different our own solar system is to 628 00:25:54.630 --> 00:25:57.390 probably most of the other solar 629 00:25:57.390 --> 00:25:59.550 systems that we can look out of and look out 630 00:25:59.550 --> 00:26:02.280 of beyond our galaxy and see, um, 631 00:26:02.550 --> 00:26:05.550 something formed 12 billion years ago that 632 00:26:05.550 --> 00:26:07.990 would be very, very different from the 633 00:26:08.230 --> 00:26:09.480 universe that we see now. 634 00:26:10.430 --> 00:26:12.790 Andrew Dunkley: I think it's incredible that in this day and 635 00:26:12.790 --> 00:26:15.150 age that we can look at a rock hurtling 636 00:26:15.150 --> 00:26:18.030 through space at 1.4 billion kilometres 637 00:26:18.030 --> 00:26:19.950 distant or wherever. You know, it was close 638 00:26:19.950 --> 00:26:21.590 in that at one stage, but you know what I 639 00:26:21.590 --> 00:26:24.430 mean, and be able to break it down and say 640 00:26:24.430 --> 00:26:26.670 this is exactly what we're looking at. And 641 00:26:27.230 --> 00:26:30.070 because of that we think it came from the 642 00:26:30.070 --> 00:26:32.870 early universe. Yeah, it's just incredible. 643 00:26:32.870 --> 00:26:35.710 Incredible. Uh, and a great storey to, 644 00:26:35.840 --> 00:26:38.830 um, uh, read, uh, which you can do at, uh, 645 00:26:38.830 --> 00:26:41.690 The NASA website, science.NASA.gov uh, 646 00:26:41.850 --> 00:26:43.610 you can also read the paper which was 647 00:26:43.610 --> 00:26:46.250 published in the journal Nature. This is 648 00:26:46.250 --> 00:26:48.450 Space Nuts, Andrew Dunkley with Professor 649 00:26:48.450 --> 00:26:49.370 Fred Watson Watson. 650 00:26:51.770 --> 00:26:53.530 Professor Fred Watson: I'm going to step off the land now. 651 00:26:55.770 --> 00:26:58.090 That's one small step for man, 652 00:27:01.130 --> 00:27:03.450 one diabetes for man. 653 00:27:04.010 --> 00:27:05.050 Professor Fred Watson: Space Nuts. 654 00:27:06.230 --> 00:27:07.900 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, the other day for Fred Watson. 655 00:27:07.900 --> 00:27:10.060 In one of our previous episodes we talked 656 00:27:10.060 --> 00:27:12.940 about the death of our sun and how 657 00:27:12.940 --> 00:27:15.620 it'll turn into a red giant and fry us all 658 00:27:15.700 --> 00:27:18.660 and, um, you know, free barbecue gas. But 659 00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:20.100 that's about it. Um, 660 00:27:21.780 --> 00:27:24.019 and we've had questions about it as well. 661 00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:27.100 Now there's some new information about the 662 00:27:27.100 --> 00:27:29.700 death spiral of our, of our only 663 00:27:29.860 --> 00:27:32.260 or our nearest star. And 664 00:27:33.780 --> 00:27:34.750 it's a bit weird. 665 00:27:35.910 --> 00:27:38.340 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, it is. Uh, there's a very nice Space.com 666 00:27:38.340 --> 00:27:40.670 piece on this written by Robert Lee. I, uh, 667 00:27:40.780 --> 00:27:43.460 love, uh, Robert's headline. Uh, our sun 668 00:27:43.540 --> 00:27:46.260 is destined to kick and spit its way 669 00:27:46.260 --> 00:27:48.420 across the solar system when it dies. 670 00:27:48.820 --> 00:27:50.900 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, great. 671 00:27:51.350 --> 00:27:53.300 Professor Fred Watson: Um, that's right. 672 00:27:54.230 --> 00:27:57.060 Uh, and the first sentence 673 00:27:57.060 --> 00:27:58.740 is. Scientists have discovered that dying 674 00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:01.660 stars don't go down without a fight. Um, Yes, 675 00:28:01.660 --> 00:28:03.060 I like that theme very much. 676 00:28:03.140 --> 00:28:04.740 Andrew Dunkley: We shouldn't be surprised by that. 677 00:28:04.900 --> 00:28:07.600 Professor Fred Watson: Not really. No. That's right. So, uh, what 678 00:28:07.600 --> 00:28:10.400 this is about is the later stages of 679 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:13.040 the sun's life. Um, it, 680 00:28:13.800 --> 00:28:16.800 uh, seems, um, inevitable from what we know 681 00:28:16.800 --> 00:28:19.320 about the way stars behave, that within the 682 00:28:19.320 --> 00:28:21.280 next 3 to 5 billion years the 683 00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:24.400 hydrogen in the core of the sun will run out 684 00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:27.000 the Core collapses and the outer layers of 685 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:29.920 the star uh basically puff outwards, 686 00:28:30.100 --> 00:28:33.000 um perhaps making the star 100 687 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:35.280 times its original diameter. 688 00:28:36.080 --> 00:28:38.160 So you know our sun's going to get very big, 689 00:28:38.260 --> 00:28:40.980 uh, big enough probably to swallow up the 690 00:28:40.980 --> 00:28:43.860 Earth. Um and what you get is 691 00:28:43.860 --> 00:28:46.420 the uh, you know, you get a planetary nebula 692 00:28:46.420 --> 00:28:48.260 forming. That's what we call them. That's 693 00:28:48.260 --> 00:28:51.060 that glow of circle of glowing gas or sphere 694 00:28:51.060 --> 00:28:53.540 of glowing gas with a white dwarf at the 695 00:28:53.540 --> 00:28:56.440 centre. Um, probably actually uh, 696 00:28:58.100 --> 00:29:00.220 um, the sun might even be as big as the orbit 697 00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:03.100 of Mars uh when it goes. But it's a person 698 00:29:03.260 --> 00:29:05.500 at ah, California Institute of Technology, 699 00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:09.180 Uh Jim Fuller has calculated 700 00:29:09.740 --> 00:29:11.900 that during that process 701 00:29:12.460 --> 00:29:14.980 before the star becomes a white 702 00:29:14.980 --> 00:29:16.780 dwarf, it 703 00:29:17.500 --> 00:29:20.060 basically spits. Uh, 704 00:29:20.700 --> 00:29:23.420 he says it will receive around 705 00:29:23.500 --> 00:29:26.340 10,000 little kicks over the 706 00:29:26.340 --> 00:29:28.860 course of hundreds of thousands of years. So 707 00:29:29.020 --> 00:29:31.420 they're well spaced out. But these are 708 00:29:31.660 --> 00:29:33.980 blobs of plasma that are being 709 00:29:33.980 --> 00:29:36.390 ejected from the, the 710 00:29:36.630 --> 00:29:39.630 surface of this bloated uh, version 711 00:29:39.630 --> 00:29:42.590 of the sun, the red giant. And the point 712 00:29:42.590 --> 00:29:45.590 that uh, Jim Fuller is making is 713 00:29:45.860 --> 00:29:48.630 um, it's a good one. It's basic physics. 714 00:29:49.510 --> 00:29:51.910 If you eject a blob of matter 715 00:29:52.230 --> 00:29:54.870 from the sun, the sun gets a kick in the 716 00:29:54.870 --> 00:29:57.390 opposite direction. Um, oh yeah, that makes 717 00:29:57.390 --> 00:29:59.790 sense. For every action there's an equal and 718 00:29:59.790 --> 00:30:02.550 opposite reaction. And so these, 719 00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:05.910 um, he suggests will 720 00:30:06.790 --> 00:30:09.020 push the sun around uh, 721 00:30:10.380 --> 00:30:13.110 uh, in different random directions. What 722 00:30:13.910 --> 00:30:16.810 is technically known as a random walk. Um, 723 00:30:16.870 --> 00:30:19.870 so basically Random Walk is as the 724 00:30:19.870 --> 00:30:22.690 title suggests, uh, you um, 725 00:30:23.110 --> 00:30:25.590 you know, you basically 726 00:30:25.590 --> 00:30:28.550 randomise uh movement uh in 727 00:30:28.550 --> 00:30:31.070 any given direction and you end up with this 728 00:30:31.070 --> 00:30:33.790 random walk process. And so uh, Jim 729 00:30:33.790 --> 00:30:36.770 Fuller said that for a red giant 730 00:30:37.490 --> 00:30:39.570 the random walk 731 00:30:40.290 --> 00:30:43.010 would basically uh, each of these spits 732 00:30:43.570 --> 00:30:45.970 would see uh, the thing moving 733 00:30:46.210 --> 00:30:48.290 at uh, the sun moving at around 734 00:30:48.370 --> 00:30:50.930 3,540 kilometres an hour. 735 00:30:51.410 --> 00:30:51.890 Professor Fred Watson: Whoa. 736 00:30:52.270 --> 00:30:54.290 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, now that's a lot uh in 737 00:30:54.690 --> 00:30:56.940 terrestrial terms. But um, 738 00:30:57.410 --> 00:30:59.610 when you think about stars that are 739 00:30:59.610 --> 00:31:02.610 collapsing uh into um, 740 00:31:02.790 --> 00:31:05.070 basically black holes, uh in supernova 741 00:31:05.070 --> 00:31:07.430 explosions which the sun won't do, uh because 742 00:31:07.430 --> 00:31:09.750 it's not big enough, uh, uh, 743 00:31:10.230 --> 00:31:13.230 that's still a very small velocity but it 744 00:31:13.230 --> 00:31:15.470 still produces a random walk. I think that 745 00:31:15.470 --> 00:31:18.070 velocity is actually the 746 00:31:19.060 --> 00:31:21.510 uh, overall motion that you get from this 747 00:31:21.510 --> 00:31:23.470 random walk process. You get it actually 748 00:31:23.470 --> 00:31:26.470 moving in a random direction in space. 749 00:31:27.350 --> 00:31:30.230 Andrew Dunkley: So it's going to kick and scream and go 750 00:31:30.230 --> 00:31:32.850 down like, I don't know, um, 751 00:31:33.650 --> 00:31:35.930 a heavyweight boxer. It's, it's, it's not. 752 00:31:35.930 --> 00:31:37.410 And it's going to bounce around the ring 753 00:31:37.410 --> 00:31:37.730 like. 754 00:31:38.290 --> 00:31:39.210 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, yeah. 755 00:31:39.210 --> 00:31:40.050 Andrew Dunkley: Muhammad Ali. 756 00:31:40.850 --> 00:31:43.610 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, yep. Or, or even Cassius Clay. 757 00:31:43.610 --> 00:31:45.490 Andrew Dunkley: Or Cassius Clay, whichever you like. 758 00:31:45.760 --> 00:31:47.410 Professor Fred Watson: Um, same person, 759 00:31:48.130 --> 00:31:48.770 definitely. 760 00:31:49.410 --> 00:31:50.930 Andrew Dunkley: Ah, okay. Well, 761 00:31:52.450 --> 00:31:54.330 I guess the question is how did they figure 762 00:31:54.330 --> 00:31:54.770 that out? 763 00:31:55.730 --> 00:31:58.620 Professor Fred Watson: Yes. So, um, I think that's, um. You 764 00:31:58.620 --> 00:32:01.130 know, what you do is you look at the, um, 765 00:32:01.130 --> 00:32:03.580 thermo hydrodynamics of the interior of the 766 00:32:03.580 --> 00:32:06.340 sun as its atmosphere is 767 00:32:06.340 --> 00:32:09.340 changing. Uh, in fact, 768 00:32:09.340 --> 00:32:11.860 I should say the atmospheres of stars, uh, 769 00:32:11.860 --> 00:32:14.660 are, uh, an area of research that has been 770 00:32:14.660 --> 00:32:17.620 really very well studied over the last 50 771 00:32:17.620 --> 00:32:19.540 years from a theoretical viewpoint. And I've 772 00:32:19.540 --> 00:32:21.580 sort of watched that the way that evolves a 773 00:32:21.580 --> 00:32:24.550 bit. Because my, um, job at one 774 00:32:24.550 --> 00:32:26.430 stage as the project manager of the RAVE 775 00:32:26.430 --> 00:32:28.750 survey, the Radial Velocity Experiment, uh, 776 00:32:28.750 --> 00:32:31.350 which we carried out on the UK 777 00:32:31.350 --> 00:32:33.470 Schmidt, measured the spectra of half a 778 00:32:33.470 --> 00:32:35.950 million stars. And a lot of what we did with 779 00:32:35.950 --> 00:32:37.670 that, uh, was to do with the atmospheres of 780 00:32:37.670 --> 00:32:40.350 these stars. And I kind of watched 781 00:32:40.510 --> 00:32:43.150 the way the technology evolved, 782 00:32:43.670 --> 00:32:46.550 uh, and all the buzzwords that. I mean, I 783 00:32:46.550 --> 00:32:48.390 didn't understand the science because I've 784 00:32:48.390 --> 00:32:51.350 never really dwelt on the interiors of 785 00:32:51.350 --> 00:32:53.830 stars in any deep level. At least not as far 786 00:32:53.830 --> 00:32:56.330 as the hydrothermal dynamics are concerned. 787 00:32:56.790 --> 00:32:59.530 Um, uh, but the buzzwords that they were 788 00:32:59.530 --> 00:33:02.490 using changed over the years and the codes, 789 00:33:02.930 --> 00:33:05.370 um, the software that was being used to make 790 00:33:05.370 --> 00:33:08.290 these analyses, uh, and so they're well 791 00:33:08.290 --> 00:33:10.450 understood. And I guess it's a deeper 792 00:33:10.450 --> 00:33:13.450 analysis of that that gives 793 00:33:13.450 --> 00:33:15.570 rise to the idea that you get spits and 794 00:33:15.570 --> 00:33:17.930 perhaps I can suggest the direction that 795 00:33:17.930 --> 00:33:20.330 might have come in. Because normally when you 796 00:33:20.330 --> 00:33:22.530 think of the atmosphere of a star, you 797 00:33:22.530 --> 00:33:25.510 imagine it as something. The atmosphere, 798 00:33:25.630 --> 00:33:28.550 um, is basically in shells, 799 00:33:28.550 --> 00:33:30.950 different shells. You can imagine its 800 00:33:30.950 --> 00:33:33.110 structure changes, but you always 801 00:33:33.750 --> 00:33:35.910 imagine it to be completely spherically 802 00:33:35.910 --> 00:33:37.790 symmetric. That you're talking just about 803 00:33:37.790 --> 00:33:40.310 spheres. Now if you break those spheres down, 804 00:33:40.470 --> 00:33:42.470 then you're going to get different processes 805 00:33:42.470 --> 00:33:45.030 going on at one side of a sphere from you get 806 00:33:45.350 --> 00:33:47.270 at the other side. And that might be where 807 00:33:47.270 --> 00:33:49.320 these, uh, phenomena, uh, 808 00:33:49.590 --> 00:33:52.070 originate in what Jim Fuller's talking about. 809 00:33:53.030 --> 00:33:55.150 Andrew Dunkley: Fascinating. You can read all about it at 810 00:33:55.150 --> 00:33:57.690 Space. It was presented at the 811 00:33:57.690 --> 00:34:00.170 248th meeting of the American Astronomical 812 00:34:00.170 --> 00:34:02.810 Society in Pasadena, uh, 813 00:34:02.850 --> 00:34:05.330 and has been submitted to the Proceedings of 814 00:34:05.330 --> 00:34:08.050 the Astronomical Society of the Pacific. 815 00:34:08.290 --> 00:34:10.570 So, uh, yeah, it's 816 00:34:10.570 --> 00:34:13.330 uh, a fascinating discovery 817 00:34:13.330 --> 00:34:15.970 and glad we won't be around to see all that. 818 00:34:17.650 --> 00:34:18.130 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. 819 00:34:18.570 --> 00:34:20.410 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, Fred Watson, we're done. Thank you so 820 00:34:20.410 --> 00:34:20.930 very much. 821 00:34:21.590 --> 00:34:23.670 Professor Fred Watson: Um, thank you, Andrew. It's been. Been jolly 822 00:34:23.670 --> 00:34:25.670 as always and, uh, hope we can do it again 823 00:34:25.670 --> 00:34:26.310 sometime. 824 00:34:26.630 --> 00:34:29.470 Andrew Dunkley: Maybe in a few minutes. Who knows? Professor 825 00:34:29.470 --> 00:34:31.060 Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at large. Um, 826 00:34:31.510 --> 00:34:33.710 and between episodes, please visit our 827 00:34:33.710 --> 00:34:36.630 website or our uh, social media platforms and 828 00:34:36.710 --> 00:34:38.510 maybe uh, you can go to the podcast group and 829 00:34:38.510 --> 00:34:40.310 have a chat with other people that listen to 830 00:34:40.310 --> 00:34:42.790 the show and um, yeah, they 831 00:34:43.270 --> 00:34:45.830 quite often talk um, about what we've talked 832 00:34:45.830 --> 00:34:48.310 about and carve it all up between themselves 833 00:34:48.310 --> 00:34:51.110 which is good. Uh, and you can cheque out all 834 00:34:51.110 --> 00:34:53.950 our other stuff on the website as well. 835 00:34:53.950 --> 00:34:56.690 Space nuts podcast.com and 836 00:34:56.690 --> 00:34:59.130 thanks to Huw in the studio who couldn't be 837 00:34:59.130 --> 00:35:01.850 with us today because he, he proved Newton's 838 00:35:01.850 --> 00:35:03.970 law. We turned up so he went the other way. 839 00:35:04.610 --> 00:35:06.570 And from me, Andrew Dunkley, thanks for your 840 00:35:06.570 --> 00:35:08.890 company. We will see you on the next episode 841 00:35:08.890 --> 00:35:10.370 of Space Nuts. Bye Bye. 842 00:35:11.490 --> 00:35:13.690 You've been listening to the Space Nuts 843 00:35:13.690 --> 00:35:16.650 podcast available at 844 00:35:16.650 --> 00:35:19.450 Apple Podcasts, Spotify, I have 845 00:35:19.450 --> 00:35:22.260 radio or your favourite podcast player. You 846 00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:25.020 can also stream on demand@bytes.com. 847 00:35:25.340 --> 00:35:27.380 this has been another quality podcast 848 00:35:27.380 --> 00:35:29.500 production from bytes.com.