WEBVTT 0 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.640 Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is 1 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:05.200 Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy and space 2 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.000 science and sometimes puppy dogs. Who knows? 3 00:00:08.520 --> 00:00:10.840 Uh, my name is Andrew Dunkley, uh, your host. 4 00:00:10.840 --> 00:00:13.160 It's great to have your company. Coming up on 5 00:00:13.160 --> 00:00:16.080 this episode, we are going to look into 6 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:19.240 a discovery made through the Perseverance 7 00:00:19.240 --> 00:00:21.920 Rover on Mars. Uh, have they 8 00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:24.520 found what could have been life in Mars's 9 00:00:24.520 --> 00:00:26.840 history? Or is it another rock that's just 10 00:00:26.840 --> 00:00:29.760 got a stain on it? Uh, also, uh, we've 11 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:32.420 got some news on the Hubble Tension and the 12 00:00:32.420 --> 00:00:35.260 Large Hadron Collider is no 13 00:00:35.260 --> 00:00:37.820 more. Well, it's going to be more, 14 00:00:37.980 --> 00:00:40.780 but it needs to be no more to be more. 15 00:00:40.780 --> 00:00:42.980 We'll tell you all about it on this episode 16 00:00:42.980 --> 00:00:43.980 of space nuts. 17 00:00:44.140 --> 00:00:46.540 Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 18 00:00:46.860 --> 00:00:49.500 10, 9. Ignition 19 00:00:49.500 --> 00:00:50.540 sequence start. 20 00:00:50.700 --> 00:00:51.421 Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts. 21 00:00:51.493 --> 00:00:54.280 Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3, 2. 1, 2, 3, 4, 22 00:00:54.351 --> 00:00:56.460 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. 23 00:00:56.540 --> 00:00:57.740 Andrew Dunkley: Space nuts. 24 00:00:57.740 --> 00:00:59.580 Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report it feels good. 25 00:01:00.550 --> 00:01:03.190 Andrew Dunkley: Joining us again to discuss all of those 26 00:01:03.190 --> 00:01:04.910 things and more is Professor Fred Watson 27 00:01:04.910 --> 00:01:06.950 Watson, astronomer at large. Hi, Fred Watson. 28 00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:09.350 Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. Good to see you. 29 00:01:09.750 --> 00:01:10.510 Andrew Dunkley: Good to see you too. 30 00:01:10.510 --> 00:01:13.310 Professor Fred Watson: Good to be back on Space Nuts. It 31 00:01:13.310 --> 00:01:14.190 is, it is. 32 00:01:14.190 --> 00:01:14.870 Andrew Dunkley: It's very good. 33 00:01:15.430 --> 00:01:17.950 Uh, we've got a lot to talk about, so we 34 00:01:17.950 --> 00:01:20.810 might as well dive right in because, um, 35 00:01:20.810 --> 00:01:22.870 it wasn't so long ago that we had a bit of a 36 00:01:22.870 --> 00:01:25.750 chat about a, A rock that they 37 00:01:25.750 --> 00:01:27.950 found that they said came from Mars and it 38 00:01:27.950 --> 00:01:29.790 showed, uh, there was life. And then it 39 00:01:29.790 --> 00:01:32.370 turned out to be nothing like that. 40 00:01:33.100 --> 00:01:35.810 Uh, and now we have a storey popping up. 41 00:01:36.060 --> 00:01:38.810 Uh, that suggests the Perseverance Rover may 42 00:01:38.810 --> 00:01:41.570 have detected complex carbon, 43 00:01:41.720 --> 00:01:44.210 uh, molecules in Martian rocks that 44 00:01:44.610 --> 00:01:47.450 may have been signatures for 45 00:01:47.450 --> 00:01:50.440 life. Um, yeah, you can't, uh, 46 00:01:50.440 --> 00:01:52.890 you can't say, look, I found formal life on 47 00:01:52.890 --> 00:01:54.930 Mars. It's all over. Red Rover. Boom, boom. 48 00:01:54.930 --> 00:01:56.850 That's a good joke, that. Think about it. 49 00:01:57.170 --> 00:02:00.090 Professor Fred Watson: And, um, I didn't need to think too 50 00:02:00.090 --> 00:02:00.450 hard. 51 00:02:01.810 --> 00:02:04.700 Andrew Dunkley: And, uh, look, you've just got to take 52 00:02:04.700 --> 00:02:07.340 this with a grain of, uh, Martian salt and 53 00:02:07.820 --> 00:02:09.500 hope that that's what they've actually found. 54 00:02:09.500 --> 00:02:10.460 That's what it's all about. 55 00:02:12.940 --> 00:02:15.060 Professor Fred Watson: You have to go back to that pink planet we 56 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:17.220 were talking about a few episodes ago to get 57 00:02:17.220 --> 00:02:18.500 the grain of salt to. 58 00:02:18.500 --> 00:02:19.500 Andrew Dunkley: Pink Salt planet, 59 00:02:21.740 --> 00:02:22.260 Professor Fred Watson: indeed. 60 00:02:22.260 --> 00:02:25.070 So, um, yes, the storey is. It is, um, 61 00:02:25.100 --> 00:02:27.780 as you've hinted, um, a kind of 62 00:02:27.780 --> 00:02:30.620 extension of a storey that we covered a few 63 00:02:30.620 --> 00:02:33.410 weeks ago, which was this particular 64 00:02:33.490 --> 00:02:36.050 rock, um, which 65 00:02:36.130 --> 00:02:38.970 is, uh, from an outcrop called 66 00:02:38.970 --> 00:02:41.850 the Bright Angel Outcrop, uh, on, um, 67 00:02:42.210 --> 00:02:45.010 Mars. Uh, so this is the Perseverance Rover, 68 00:02:45.010 --> 00:02:47.610 which you'll Remember is working hard in 69 00:02:47.610 --> 00:02:50.450 Jezero Crater, where there is a 70 00:02:50.450 --> 00:02:53.370 river Delta from probably 3.5 billion 71 00:02:53.370 --> 00:02:55.970 years ago. So, um, the Bright 72 00:02:55.970 --> 00:02:58.770 angel outcrop and the particular rock 73 00:02:59.090 --> 00:03:01.980 that they found, um, I can't see whether 74 00:03:02.060 --> 00:03:04.460 it had a particular name, but it was a 75 00:03:04.460 --> 00:03:07.420 mudstone rock which had, 76 00:03:08.740 --> 00:03:11.420 uh, basically, as you said, stains on them. 77 00:03:12.060 --> 00:03:15.060 Uh, stains on the surface. Um, stains on 78 00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:16.700 Mars will be interesting because you'd wonder 79 00:03:16.700 --> 00:03:19.580 where they came from. But it's got 80 00:03:19.580 --> 00:03:21.740 surface spots and what have been called 81 00:03:21.740 --> 00:03:24.620 nodules. Uh, and the 82 00:03:24.620 --> 00:03:27.180 reason why it caused excitement was 83 00:03:27.420 --> 00:03:30.380 that some of those features superficially 84 00:03:30.380 --> 00:03:33.380 resemble the features that are 85 00:03:33.380 --> 00:03:36.140 produced on Earth by fossilised 86 00:03:36.140 --> 00:03:37.980 microbes. And that's what we covered 87 00:03:37.980 --> 00:03:40.140 actually, back in 2024. It seems like only 88 00:03:40.140 --> 00:03:42.700 yesterday, but we did talk about that. 89 00:03:43.660 --> 00:03:45.500 Or maybe. No, it was probably last year 90 00:03:45.500 --> 00:03:47.500 actually. Um, I think that's when the results 91 00:03:47.500 --> 00:03:49.420 came out. So last year, 2025. 92 00:03:50.270 --> 00:03:53.150 Uh, uh, and a quote, um, 93 00:03:54.050 --> 00:03:56.260 uh, there's a nice Guardian piece on this 94 00:03:56.260 --> 00:03:59.060 Storey, but there's a quote from Sean Duffy, 95 00:03:59.060 --> 00:04:01.560 who used to acting head of NASA, 96 00:04:01.990 --> 00:04:04.800 uh, who said of that discovery, this 97 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:07.080 very well could be the clearest sign of life 98 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:09.480 that we've ever found on Mars. Which is 99 00:04:10.040 --> 00:04:12.200 an interesting comment. And of course 100 00:04:12.760 --> 00:04:15.000 all astrobiologists and all scientists 101 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:17.560 probably, and all, um, podcast presenters, 102 00:04:17.970 --> 00:04:20.760 uh, couch this sort of discovery in very, 103 00:04:20.840 --> 00:04:23.480 very, um, broad terms 104 00:04:23.640 --> 00:04:26.540 because, uh, with. There's 105 00:04:26.540 --> 00:04:29.420 certainly no. This is certainly not a 106 00:04:29.420 --> 00:04:32.260 definitive discovery of life 107 00:04:32.260 --> 00:04:35.180 on Mars, but it 108 00:04:35.180 --> 00:04:38.060 has basically gone 109 00:04:38.060 --> 00:04:40.820 further in the sense that the samples 110 00:04:41.460 --> 00:04:44.340 that, uh, Perseverance took 111 00:04:44.420 --> 00:04:47.140 from this mudstone, uh, 112 00:04:47.140 --> 00:04:49.780 showed that there was something called 113 00:04:49.780 --> 00:04:52.260 macromolecular carbon on its surface. 114 00:04:53.540 --> 00:04:56.260 And that's something. A 115 00:04:56.260 --> 00:04:58.340 carbon, you know, it's carbon compounds, 116 00:04:59.140 --> 00:05:01.140 probably. Excuse me. Sorry about that, 117 00:05:01.140 --> 00:05:03.820 Andrew, just bellowing into my microphone 118 00:05:03.820 --> 00:05:05.960 here. I do apologise. Um, 119 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:09.180 um. Uh, it's probably several 120 00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:12.060 organic types of organic 121 00:05:12.060 --> 00:05:13.740 molecule and of course organic means 122 00:05:13.740 --> 00:05:16.180 containing carbon associated with life 123 00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:18.900 normally. Um, but, uh, the 124 00:05:18.900 --> 00:05:21.220 analysis of this shows, 125 00:05:21.700 --> 00:05:23.940 and the analysis by Perseverance 126 00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:27.700 shows that it is, uh, 127 00:05:27.840 --> 00:05:30.400 a possibility that 128 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:34.240 this life, these organic, these 129 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:37.120 macromolecules, carbon macromolecules, 130 00:05:37.520 --> 00:05:39.960 could have been the result of life 131 00:05:39.960 --> 00:05:42.800 processes, but they could also 132 00:05:43.440 --> 00:05:45.280 come from basically, 133 00:05:46.170 --> 00:05:49.080 uh, I mean essentially, um, geological 134 00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:51.800 processes, tectonic processes. And 135 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:54.450 so that's where the 136 00:05:54.450 --> 00:05:57.400 thing stands at the moment. Uh, 137 00:05:58.170 --> 00:05:59.210 we know from, 138 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.010 uh, work that's already been done by 139 00:06:04.170 --> 00:06:06.570 the Perseverance rover and Perseverance, 140 00:06:07.300 --> 00:06:10.090 uh, so Curiosity went to Mars to 141 00:06:10.090 --> 00:06:12.090 determine whether Mars was ever habitable. 142 00:06:12.650 --> 00:06:15.410 And we know that from Curiosity it found that 143 00:06:15.410 --> 00:06:17.730 out within the first two weeks of being 144 00:06:17.730 --> 00:06:20.650 there. Um, but we know now from 145 00:06:20.650 --> 00:06:23.410 perseverance that Jezero Crater was also 146 00:06:23.410 --> 00:06:25.190 a habitable, habitable environment 147 00:06:26.390 --> 00:06:29.190 at um, least for some sort of primitive level 148 00:06:29.190 --> 00:06:32.030 of life. Um, but of course uh, the 149 00:06:32.030 --> 00:06:34.910 issue is that we won't be able to do the 150 00:06:34.910 --> 00:06:37.350 proper tests on these samples until 151 00:06:37.910 --> 00:06:40.560 we get these samples back to Earth, uh, 152 00:06:40.589 --> 00:06:43.350 laboratories where there's far more refined 153 00:06:43.350 --> 00:06:45.270 equipment than you can carry on a little 154 00:06:45.270 --> 00:06:47.950 rover on Mars. And the problem is we 155 00:06:47.950 --> 00:06:49.950 don't currently have any way of doing that, 156 00:06:49.950 --> 00:06:52.700 of getting these samples back because the um, 157 00:06:53.070 --> 00:06:55.740 the mission uh, to do that, a uh, 158 00:06:55.790 --> 00:06:58.670 joint NASA European Space Agency mission 159 00:06:59.070 --> 00:07:01.630 fell foul of politics in the United States 160 00:07:01.630 --> 00:07:03.390 and was cancelled earlier in the year. 161 00:07:03.960 --> 00:07:04.010 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, 162 00:07:05.870 --> 00:07:07.710 Professor Fred Watson: we knew it was in trouble anyway because the 163 00:07:07.710 --> 00:07:10.310 cost had sort of blown out. So it's not a 164 00:07:10.310 --> 00:07:11.910 surprise that that happened. But at the 165 00:07:11.910 --> 00:07:14.870 moment there's nothing on the books to get 166 00:07:14.870 --> 00:07:17.870 them back. Few plans going on I think, 167 00:07:17.870 --> 00:07:19.550 but not to get them back. 168 00:07:20.700 --> 00:07:23.060 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, and that's uh, frustrating but I 169 00:07:23.060 --> 00:07:25.740 suppose in the scheme of things it's, I mean 170 00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:28.700 we all want to know whether or not Mars 171 00:07:28.700 --> 00:07:31.060 had life but it's probably not one of the 172 00:07:31.060 --> 00:07:33.830 most urgent things to deal with. Um, 173 00:07:34.140 --> 00:07:36.860 we'll get around to it and chances 174 00:07:36.860 --> 00:07:39.600 are that those um, 175 00:07:40.220 --> 00:07:42.420 cylinders I think they are, that the deposits 176 00:07:42.420 --> 00:07:45.260 are in will be collected as a part of 177 00:07:45.340 --> 00:07:48.040 another major mission. That would be my 178 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:49.800 thinking sometime in the future. 179 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:53.080 Professor Fred Watson: You're probably right. Uh, although it's 180 00:07:53.080 --> 00:07:56.080 a very specific type of mission that's going 181 00:07:56.080 --> 00:07:57.480 to go and collect these samples 182 00:07:59.400 --> 00:08:01.680 and then send them back to Earth. That's the 183 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:04.440 tricky bit. It is, it's 184 00:08:04.520 --> 00:08:06.280 probably a two step process where you've got 185 00:08:06.280 --> 00:08:09.200 an orbiter um, sent to 186 00:08:09.200 --> 00:08:11.800 Mars, goes into orbit around Mars, that drops 187 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:14.800 a probe onto the surface. The probe picks up 188 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:17.400 the uh, cache samples, 189 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:20.200 not ah, cash but 190 00:08:20.200 --> 00:08:23.120 cache, uh, and um, brings them 191 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:25.440 back up to the orbiter and then the orbiter 192 00:08:25.440 --> 00:08:28.120 sends off a probe to the Earth and that re 193 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:30.240 enters. It's a very complex process which is 194 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:33.160 why the cost blew out. But um, I 195 00:08:33.160 --> 00:08:36.040 do have my own view on what might prompt 196 00:08:36.700 --> 00:08:39.480 uh, some urgency with this and that is that 197 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:42.400 the Chinese are planning to do a sample 198 00:08:42.400 --> 00:08:44.640 return mission to Mars uh, in 199 00:08:44.640 --> 00:08:47.400 the2030s. So um, 200 00:08:47.520 --> 00:08:50.160 if anything's going to stimulate some action 201 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:53.160 on this, my guess is that that's what it 202 00:08:53.160 --> 00:08:56.040 would be. And you know, all praise to 203 00:08:56.040 --> 00:08:57.880 the China National Space Agency. 204 00:08:57.880 --> 00:08:58.400 Professor Fred Watson: Absolutely. 205 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:01.240 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, for aiming high. It's a great thing to 206 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:01.520 do. 207 00:09:01.760 --> 00:09:02.320 Andrew Dunkley: It is. 208 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:05.480 And um, the other interesting thing 209 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:07.840 I suppose and you mentioned Curiosity. Uh, 210 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:10.720 it's starting to build up evidence 211 00:09:10.880 --> 00:09:13.880 that, um, the potential for life 212 00:09:13.880 --> 00:09:16.840 on Mars was widespread across the 213 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:17.280 planet. 214 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:20.440 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, correct. That's right. So I meant 215 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:21.760 to mention that. That's absolutely right. 216 00:09:21.760 --> 00:09:23.960 That you know, when you've got, um, 217 00:09:24.860 --> 00:09:27.320 uh, mudstones separated by 3,000 218 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:30.240 kilometres or thereabouts, uh, and 219 00:09:30.880 --> 00:09:33.200 giving you the same sort of answer. Yeah, 220 00:09:33.280 --> 00:09:34.720 that I think is, um, 221 00:09:35.760 --> 00:09:38.640 it's a very, very strong evidence 222 00:09:38.640 --> 00:09:41.520 for there having been the possibility of life 223 00:09:41.520 --> 00:09:44.240 on Mars and that it might be findable, if I 224 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:46.640 can put it that way, if the conditions are 225 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:49.430 suitable for life everywhere, then there 226 00:09:49.430 --> 00:09:52.270 might be remnants, um, of living 227 00:09:52.270 --> 00:09:54.610 organisms everywhere on Mars which we have, 228 00:09:54.610 --> 00:09:56.430 uh, a good chance of finding. Because 229 00:09:57.710 --> 00:10:00.670 when NASA and other space agencies 230 00:10:00.670 --> 00:10:03.070 aim to send, uh, spacecraft to Mars, 231 00:10:03.390 --> 00:10:06.310 it's not quite just a tail on 232 00:10:06.310 --> 00:10:08.190 the donkey thing where you just poke it in 233 00:10:08.430 --> 00:10:11.070 willy nilly. You've got really good reasons 234 00:10:11.070 --> 00:10:13.110 for going to any specific place. And 235 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:15.990 certainly Jezero Crater, um, it 236 00:10:15.990 --> 00:10:18.070 was a masterstroke. Sending it to a lake 237 00:10:18.070 --> 00:10:20.790 that, uh, had, um, a 238 00:10:20.790 --> 00:10:21.990 river delta in it. 239 00:10:22.310 --> 00:10:24.160 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, they, they picked a good target. Uh, 240 00:10:24.390 --> 00:10:27.110 that was intentional. And yes, uh, it seems 241 00:10:27.110 --> 00:10:29.190 to be paying off. Fingers. Fingers crossed. 242 00:10:29.190 --> 00:10:32.150 But, um, yeah, too early to tell. But looking 243 00:10:32.630 --> 00:10:35.390 somewhat promising is, I think, the best way 244 00:10:35.390 --> 00:10:36.629 to describe it at the moment. 245 00:10:36.950 --> 00:10:39.310 Professor Fred Watson: That's right. It's not, it's not a kind of 246 00:10:39.310 --> 00:10:40.990 negative result. It's not saying, oh, no, 247 00:10:40.990 --> 00:10:43.130 there's no life on Mars. It's saying, hm, 248 00:10:43.130 --> 00:10:44.470 there might be. It might have been. 249 00:10:44.710 --> 00:10:47.190 Andrew Dunkley: Might, might have been. And still might be. 250 00:10:47.630 --> 00:10:49.630 Professor Fred Watson: It still might be. That's right, yeah. 251 00:10:50.030 --> 00:10:52.990 Andrew Dunkley: You can read all about that@theguardian.com 252 00:10:52.990 --> 00:10:55.030 or you can read the paper that's been 253 00:10:55.030 --> 00:10:58.030 published in Science Advances. This is Space 254 00:10:58.030 --> 00:11:00.070 Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor 255 00:11:00.070 --> 00:11:00.910 Fred Watson Watson. 256 00:11:03.230 --> 00:11:04.270 Space Nuts. 257 00:11:04.350 --> 00:11:06.910 Now, uh, one of our, um, semi 258 00:11:06.910 --> 00:11:09.550 regular topics is the Hubble 259 00:11:09.710 --> 00:11:12.510 Tension and it's back in the news again, 260 00:11:12.870 --> 00:11:15.830 uh, because of a, um, 261 00:11:15.950 --> 00:11:18.910 another detection involving the collision 262 00:11:18.910 --> 00:11:20.730 of neutron stars. Is that right? 263 00:11:20.890 --> 00:11:23.850 Professor Fred Watson: That's correct, yes. Um, yes. 264 00:11:23.850 --> 00:11:26.850 So, uh, the Hubble Tension is one 265 00:11:26.850 --> 00:11:29.810 of these irritating things that just won't 266 00:11:29.810 --> 00:11:30.330 go away. 267 00:11:31.370 --> 00:11:33.290 Andrew Dunkley: Well, it's being described as one of the 268 00:11:33.290 --> 00:11:35.530 biggest challenges in modern cosmology. So, 269 00:11:35.530 --> 00:11:36.730 yes, it won't go away. 270 00:11:36.890 --> 00:11:39.890 Professor Fred Watson: It won't go away. But it's a bit weird. I 271 00:11:39.890 --> 00:11:42.730 did a radio segment about it, um, with a 272 00:11:43.290 --> 00:11:45.930 Australian commercial radio station yesterday 273 00:11:45.930 --> 00:11:48.700 morning because of the headline storey. Uh, 274 00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:51.550 and I thought, how do you make this exciting? 275 00:11:53.870 --> 00:11:55.150 It was, first thing you know, it was a 276 00:11:55.150 --> 00:11:57.550 morning breakfast show and the guys who Were 277 00:11:57.550 --> 00:11:59.870 interviewing me, were clearly not impressed 278 00:11:59.870 --> 00:12:02.790 with it. Uh, normally I get lots of questions 279 00:12:02.790 --> 00:12:05.790 Andrew Dunkley: from them, but, um, it may well have just 280 00:12:05.790 --> 00:12:08.630 been something that goes 281 00:12:08.630 --> 00:12:11.350 into the too hard basket because it's not an 282 00:12:11.350 --> 00:12:12.590 easy thing to get your head around. 283 00:12:12.590 --> 00:12:15.050 Professor Fred Watson: It's not. That's right. It's not. Um, 284 00:12:15.660 --> 00:12:17.580 there's a lot of gobbledygook attached to it. 285 00:12:17.580 --> 00:12:19.300 Anyway, let's have a go. We have a very 286 00:12:19.300 --> 00:12:21.800 erudite audience on Space Nuts. Uh, 287 00:12:22.140 --> 00:12:24.620 and Space Nuts, uh, listeners 288 00:12:25.020 --> 00:12:27.940 will probably already be aware of all this 289 00:12:27.940 --> 00:12:30.500 anyway. Um, but, uh. Yes. 290 00:12:30.500 --> 00:12:33.260 So what's the Hubble tension? Uh, we have 291 00:12:33.260 --> 00:12:36.060 two measurements of the Hubble constant, 292 00:12:36.060 --> 00:12:38.820 which is the number that defines how fast 293 00:12:38.820 --> 00:12:41.500 the universe is expanding. Now, 294 00:12:42.300 --> 00:12:45.060 it's the expansion time or the 295 00:12:45.060 --> 00:12:48.040 expansion rate that we are seeing. Uh, as 296 00:12:48.040 --> 00:12:50.200 you and I have said many times before, it's 297 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:52.400 measured in units of kilometres per second 298 00:12:52.400 --> 00:12:54.880 per megaparsec. Uh, and A 299 00:12:54.880 --> 00:12:57.720 megaparsec is 3.26 million light 300 00:12:57.720 --> 00:12:59.840 years. It's the units astronomers use because 301 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:01.360 you can't measure light years, but you can 302 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:03.340 measure parsecs. So, um, 303 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:06.180 that number is, uh, 304 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:09.080 the magic number. And we have, 305 00:13:11.570 --> 00:13:13.640 uh, two different ways of determining it, 306 00:13:13.640 --> 00:13:16.480 both of which now have achieved a really 307 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.600 high level of precision. Um, 308 00:13:19.630 --> 00:13:22.270 there was a talk that I was at a couple of 309 00:13:22.270 --> 00:13:24.510 months ago in Germany where, uh, one of the 310 00:13:24.510 --> 00:13:27.150 experts was talking about this, uh, and 311 00:13:28.670 --> 00:13:30.670 the sort of uncertainty limits that are put 312 00:13:30.670 --> 00:13:33.590 on each of these two different methods of 313 00:13:33.590 --> 00:13:35.630 determining the Hubble constant. They were 314 00:13:35.630 --> 00:13:38.350 very small, uh, on the order of one 315 00:13:38.350 --> 00:13:40.920 kilometre per second. Very, very, uh, 316 00:13:40.920 --> 00:13:43.750 accurate measurements. Uh, but they 317 00:13:43.750 --> 00:13:46.520 disagree. So, uh, you can do it two ways. 318 00:13:46.520 --> 00:13:48.680 The first way is to 319 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.200 look at the cosmic microwave background 320 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:55.040 radiation, the good, uh, old background glow 321 00:13:55.040 --> 00:13:57.360 of the Big Bang that is everywhere in the 322 00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.320 sky. Uh, it has, 323 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.750 um, undulations on it in temperature, uh, 324 00:14:02.760 --> 00:14:05.240 which we recognise as being 325 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:07.720 differences in the temperature of the Big 326 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:10.040 Bang fireball, 327 00:14:10.400 --> 00:14:12.930 uh, which are caused by acoustic 328 00:14:12.930 --> 00:14:14.970 oscillations. It's the bang of the Big Bang. 329 00:14:15.290 --> 00:14:17.850 But you can use those undulations to get a 330 00:14:17.850 --> 00:14:20.850 measurement of the Hubble constant. And the 331 00:14:20.850 --> 00:14:23.810 value that that technology gets or that 332 00:14:23.810 --> 00:14:26.690 method gets is 67 to 68 kilometres per 333 00:14:26.690 --> 00:14:29.530 second per megaparsec. The 334 00:14:29.530 --> 00:14:32.410 other way of, uh, measuring this 335 00:14:32.410 --> 00:14:34.490 is to look in the nearby universe. You look 336 00:14:34.490 --> 00:14:37.130 at galaxies whose distances are measured in, 337 00:14:37.400 --> 00:14:40.050 um, millions or hundreds of millions of light 338 00:14:40.050 --> 00:14:43.010 years. Uh, and that's very local compared 339 00:14:43.010 --> 00:14:45.130 with the 13.8 billion light years 340 00:14:45.770 --> 00:14:48.480 of the cosmic microwave background. Um, 341 00:14:48.570 --> 00:14:51.290 so you look locally and you look for the 342 00:14:51.290 --> 00:14:53.840 traditional methods of Finding, um, 343 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:57.050 uh, the distances to galaxies, uh, which, 344 00:14:57.220 --> 00:14:59.890 uh, one of them is by what we call 345 00:14:59.890 --> 00:15:02.170 Cepheid variable stars. That was the way that 346 00:15:02.170 --> 00:15:04.210 galaxies were first established to be a long 347 00:15:04.210 --> 00:15:07.090 way off in 1923. Um, you 348 00:15:07.090 --> 00:15:09.710 can also do it with supernova explosions, all 349 00:15:09.710 --> 00:15:12.630 of that sort of stuff, uh, gives you another 350 00:15:12.870 --> 00:15:15.830 alternative value, uh, on the Hubble 351 00:15:15.830 --> 00:15:18.550 constant, and that gives you a higher answer. 352 00:15:18.630 --> 00:15:21.470 So the local universe gives 353 00:15:21.470 --> 00:15:24.070 you, uh, uh, an answer of about 354 00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:26.990 73 kilometres per second per 355 00:15:26.990 --> 00:15:29.350 megaparsec, sort of. So that's 356 00:15:29.670 --> 00:15:32.590 roughly 5. Higher. 5 357 00:15:32.590 --> 00:15:35.030 kilometres per second per megaparsec higher 358 00:15:35.030 --> 00:15:36.470 than the one you get from the Hubble 359 00:15:36.470 --> 00:15:39.460 constant. Now that's, you know, I suppose 360 00:15:39.460 --> 00:15:41.980 that's, uh, something like a 6 or 361 00:15:41.980 --> 00:15:44.660 7% difference between them. And 362 00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:47.820 I can tell you, 30 years ago, um, when I 363 00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:50.700 was an astronomer, kind of a 364 00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:53.460 bit more directly connected with all this 5%. 365 00:15:54.180 --> 00:15:57.130 We'd die for 5%. That was, um, 366 00:15:58.100 --> 00:16:00.540 6 or 7% or whatever the difference is 5 367 00:16:00.540 --> 00:16:02.940 kilometres per second per megaparsec, uh, 368 00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:04.580 because most of them differed by 50 369 00:16:04.580 --> 00:16:06.860 kilometres per second per megaparsec back 370 00:16:06.860 --> 00:16:09.580 then. Um, so, uh, and it was the Hubble 371 00:16:09.580 --> 00:16:11.380 telescope that actually nailed it down to be 372 00:16:11.380 --> 00:16:14.300 in the region of 70. But, yes, we have this 373 00:16:14.780 --> 00:16:17.540 discrepancy. Uh, um. What's the 374 00:16:17.540 --> 00:16:19.370 answer? So, um. 375 00:16:20.380 --> 00:16:21.860 Actually, I might just quote there's a very 376 00:16:21.860 --> 00:16:23.620 nice conversation piece by one of the 377 00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:26.540 astronomers involved, um, with this, who 378 00:16:26.540 --> 00:16:29.100 is a radio astronomer at csiro, the 379 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:31.260 Australia's National Science Agency. 380 00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:35.580 Uh, Kelly Gurgi. Uh, and, uh, 381 00:16:35.580 --> 00:16:37.980 let me see if I can find this comment. Yes, 382 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:41.320 that's that. So that Kelly says this is the 383 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:43.480 Hubble tension. What does it mean? Could it 384 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:45.680 be something. Could it be something has gone 385 00:16:45.680 --> 00:16:48.120 awry in one or both methods? 386 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:51.440 Despite intense scrutiny, nobody has found 387 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.079 any mistakes. Alternatively, our 388 00:16:54.079 --> 00:16:56.160 understanding of how the universe evolves may 389 00:16:56.160 --> 00:16:58.200 be missing something fundamental and we need 390 00:16:58.200 --> 00:16:59.720 new physics to resolve it. 391 00:17:00.620 --> 00:17:00.640 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, 392 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:05.360 Professor Fred Watson: to settle this cosmic M debate, new and 393 00:17:05.360 --> 00:17:07.480 independent methods of measuring the Hubble 394 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:09.240 constant are, uh, highly sought after. 395 00:17:09.860 --> 00:17:12.580 Which gets us to the storey. Yes, yes. 396 00:17:13.140 --> 00:17:14.580 Andrew Dunkley: We had to fill in all the blanks. 397 00:17:14.580 --> 00:17:17.580 Professor Fred Watson: That's right. Um, 398 00:17:17.620 --> 00:17:20.340 and as the article goes on, gravitational 399 00:17:20.340 --> 00:17:22.700 waves offer an entirely independent way to 400 00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:25.060 measure the expansion of the universe. And we 401 00:17:25.060 --> 00:17:26.860 know about gravitational waves. That's very 402 00:17:26.860 --> 00:17:29.300 much the stock in trade of what we talk about 403 00:17:29.380 --> 00:17:32.100 on Space Nuts. Uh, and 404 00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:34.660 so, uh, what they've done is gone back to one 405 00:17:34.660 --> 00:17:37.320 that was particularly interesting. Uh, 406 00:17:37.620 --> 00:17:40.220 and as you know, gravitational waves get 407 00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:42.420 their number from the date when they're 408 00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:43.300 discovered. This was 409 00:17:43.540 --> 00:17:46.580 GW170817. 410 00:17:47.140 --> 00:17:49.840 So, discovered on the 17th of August, uh, 411 00:17:49.840 --> 00:17:51.690 2017. Um, 412 00:17:52.740 --> 00:17:55.220 that's only two years after the first one was 413 00:17:55.220 --> 00:17:56.900 found. Actually, I think it's only a year 414 00:17:56.900 --> 00:17:59.740 after. I think, uh, it's two years, certainly 415 00:17:59.740 --> 00:18:01.460 two years after the first one was observed. 416 00:18:02.600 --> 00:18:04.060 Um, so, uh, 417 00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:08.140 and this was a neutron star collision, two 418 00:18:08.140 --> 00:18:11.060 neutron stars. And that has the 419 00:18:11.060 --> 00:18:13.700 property unlike a black hole neutron star 420 00:18:13.700 --> 00:18:15.500 collision or a black hole black hole 421 00:18:15.500 --> 00:18:18.140 collision. A neutron star neutron star 422 00:18:18.140 --> 00:18:20.700 collision, uh, actually produces 423 00:18:20.940 --> 00:18:23.220 radiation, electromagnetic radiation. It 424 00:18:23.220 --> 00:18:25.660 produces a flash or a glow. 425 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.860 Um, and that is something you can 426 00:18:28.860 --> 00:18:31.780 detect. So for a start, that means you know 427 00:18:31.780 --> 00:18:33.820 where these gravitational waves have come 428 00:18:33.820 --> 00:18:35.980 from. With a high level of certainty. You can 429 00:18:35.980 --> 00:18:38.320 take test all kinds of things like the fact 430 00:18:38.320 --> 00:18:40.880 that gravitational waves, uh, travel at the 431 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.320 speed of light. All of that sort of pops out 432 00:18:43.320 --> 00:18:45.780 of GW, uh, 433 00:18:45.780 --> 00:18:48.760 17 08, uh, 1 7. Uh, 434 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:50.760 so it was a remarkable event. 435 00:18:51.340 --> 00:18:54.280 Uh, what has now happened though is 436 00:18:54.280 --> 00:18:56.480 that people have used the analysis of that 437 00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:59.240 signal to sort of tease out, 438 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:02.520 um, the information about the 439 00:19:02.520 --> 00:19:05.400 Hubble constant. And they get an answer 440 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.360 that is not as accurate as either of the 441 00:19:08.360 --> 00:19:10.360 other ones because they haven't got that 442 00:19:10.360 --> 00:19:13.320 precision yet for this method. But it's 443 00:19:13.320 --> 00:19:15.680 intriguingly like the, 444 00:19:15.940 --> 00:19:18.480 uh, measurement from the 445 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.479 distant universe. Uh, that is the 446 00:19:21.479 --> 00:19:24.280 higher, uh, um, the lower 447 00:19:24.280 --> 00:19:27.120 value. Uh, that's the. Remember, the 448 00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:30.080 distant universe measurements have about 67 449 00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:32.680 to 68 kilometres per second per megaparsec. 450 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:35.590 The other one was more like 73. Um, this 451 00:19:35.590 --> 00:19:37.710 new value is somewhere between 452 00:19:37.870 --> 00:19:40.870 61 and 70 kilometres per 453 00:19:40.870 --> 00:19:42.910 second per megaparsec, which kind of 454 00:19:43.790 --> 00:19:46.670 is outside the range of the near 455 00:19:46.670 --> 00:19:49.120 universe value. Uh, 456 00:19:49.810 --> 00:19:52.510 uh, um, so it agrees much more 457 00:19:52.750 --> 00:19:54.990 with the distant universe value. 458 00:19:55.630 --> 00:19:56.430 Even though 459 00:19:57.070 --> 00:20:00.830 GW170817 460 00:20:01.470 --> 00:20:04.130 came from a galaxy that is 461 00:20:04.130 --> 00:20:07.130 not that far away in cosmic terms, 462 00:20:07.130 --> 00:20:09.930 it's about 140 million light years from 463 00:20:09.930 --> 00:20:12.370 Earth and that's sort of on our doorstep in 464 00:20:12.370 --> 00:20:15.130 galactic terms. So here you've got an 465 00:20:15.130 --> 00:20:16.330 independent method, 466 00:20:18.210 --> 00:20:20.530 uh, that gives an answer more like the 467 00:20:20.530 --> 00:20:23.490 distant method did. Uh, but it's 468 00:20:23.490 --> 00:20:26.450 using, uh, nearby objects rather than 469 00:20:26.450 --> 00:20:28.650 distant objects. So I think what it's done 470 00:20:29.210 --> 00:20:31.410 is very neatly thrown the cat among the 471 00:20:31.410 --> 00:20:32.170 pigeons again. 472 00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:33.210 Andrew Dunkley: Sure has. 473 00:20:34.090 --> 00:20:36.970 Professor Fred Watson: Um, well, let me just read 474 00:20:36.970 --> 00:20:39.490 the article. Uh, the last paragraph is our 475 00:20:39.490 --> 00:20:42.050 result is still four times less precise than 476 00:20:42.050 --> 00:20:44.290 the leading nearby universe measurements. We 477 00:20:44.290 --> 00:20:45.930 will need to detect more neutron star 478 00:20:45.930 --> 00:20:47.970 collisions to definitively settle the Hubble 479 00:20:47.970 --> 00:20:50.290 tension using gravitational waves. Such 480 00:20:50.290 --> 00:20:52.890 events are rare, so it may be a while. But 481 00:20:52.890 --> 00:20:55.290 for now, our study provides an important new 482 00:20:55.290 --> 00:20:57.690 clue in one of Astronomy's biggest problems. 483 00:20:58.010 --> 00:20:59.610 And that's where they leave it. 484 00:21:00.330 --> 00:21:03.270 Andrew Dunkley: Where does that place the 485 00:21:03.430 --> 00:21:05.670 storey? We did a couple of years ago about, 486 00:21:05.870 --> 00:21:08.310 ah, a study into the Hubble tension, 487 00:21:08.410 --> 00:21:11.190 um, trying to understand the differentiation 488 00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:13.030 between the two existing methods where they 489 00:21:13.030 --> 00:21:15.470 said, look, the difference is not that big a 490 00:21:15.470 --> 00:21:17.830 deal. They're both right. So 491 00:21:18.230 --> 00:21:19.910 where does that stand now? Do you remember 492 00:21:19.910 --> 00:21:20.470 talking about that? 493 00:21:20.470 --> 00:21:22.390 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I do remember. Yeah, we've covered it, 494 00:21:22.470 --> 00:21:24.890 certainly covered it before. Um, 495 00:21:25.270 --> 00:21:27.230 so if that's the case, if they're both right, 496 00:21:27.230 --> 00:21:29.030 and I think that was the outcome of that, 497 00:21:29.270 --> 00:21:31.910 then that's pushing you towards new physics 498 00:21:31.910 --> 00:21:33.440 because, um, 499 00:21:36.290 --> 00:21:38.770 to get two different results 500 00:21:39.010 --> 00:21:41.970 for the same thing by two different 501 00:21:42.050 --> 00:21:44.930 methods, both of which use general 502 00:21:44.930 --> 00:21:47.610 relativity as their basis, that is the firm 503 00:21:47.610 --> 00:21:49.650 basis of our understanding of the universe. 504 00:21:50.420 --> 00:21:52.290 Uh, what that suggests is there's something 505 00:21:52.290 --> 00:21:55.050 wrong with general relativity. Now we've 506 00:21:55.050 --> 00:21:57.410 believed that for a long time, but so far, 507 00:21:57.410 --> 00:22:00.370 all the tests, it comes out on top. It comes 508 00:22:00.370 --> 00:22:03.220 out with these incredible, uh, 509 00:22:03.290 --> 00:22:05.890 incredibly precise accuracy in 510 00:22:05.890 --> 00:22:08.570 describing the way the universe works. 511 00:22:09.450 --> 00:22:11.850 Andrew Dunkley: All right, um, watch this space, I suppose. 512 00:22:12.170 --> 00:22:12.650 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. 513 00:22:12.650 --> 00:22:15.380 Andrew Dunkley: Where we're at on that. More to come. It's 514 00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:18.090 um, one of those issues that just won't go 515 00:22:18.090 --> 00:22:21.050 away because, uh, well, being human beings we 516 00:22:21.050 --> 00:22:23.410 want to figure everything out so they won't 517 00:22:23.410 --> 00:22:26.170 give up on this. Uh, you can read about 518 00:22:26.170 --> 00:22:28.650 it at the Conversation website or you can 519 00:22:28.650 --> 00:22:30.610 read the paper which was published in the 520 00:22:30.610 --> 00:22:33.330 Astrophysical Journal. This is Space 521 00:22:33.330 --> 00:22:35.390 Nuts. Andrew Dunkley with Professor 522 00:22:35.390 --> 00:22:36.390 Fred Watson Watson. 523 00:22:38.470 --> 00:22:40.510 Professor Fred Watson: I believe that this nation should commit 524 00:22:40.510 --> 00:22:42.790 itself to achieving the goal 525 00:22:43.350 --> 00:22:46.270 before this decade is out of landing a 526 00:22:46.270 --> 00:22:48.710 man on the moon and returning him safely to 527 00:22:48.710 --> 00:22:49.150 the Earth. 528 00:22:49.150 --> 00:22:50.070 Andrew Dunkley: Face nuts. 529 00:22:51.190 --> 00:22:53.430 Now we got a question about the Large 530 00:22:53.510 --> 00:22:56.390 Hadron Collider. Recently they were asking 531 00:22:56.390 --> 00:22:59.390 about the, the speed of two particles hitting 532 00:22:59.390 --> 00:23:00.950 each other at the speed of light. Would that 533 00:23:00.950 --> 00:23:02.390 be twice the speed of light? And the answer 534 00:23:02.390 --> 00:23:05.230 was no. But the Large 535 00:23:05.230 --> 00:23:08.230 Hadron Collider is in the news for a 536 00:23:08.230 --> 00:23:11.030 different, uh, a different reason. They're 537 00:23:11.030 --> 00:23:12.830 shutting it down. It's bye bye 538 00:23:13.870 --> 00:23:16.790 Large Hadron Collider. But not forever. In 539 00:23:16.790 --> 00:23:19.110 fact, um, they're going to do some 540 00:23:19.110 --> 00:23:20.550 renovations. They're going to put a cubby 541 00:23:20.550 --> 00:23:23.070 house on top of it and a kid's playground. 542 00:23:23.230 --> 00:23:24.110 Professor Fred Watson: Grummy flower. 543 00:23:24.670 --> 00:23:26.830 Andrew Dunkley: Little coffee shop next next door. 544 00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:30.840 Professor Fred Watson: It's already got the coffee shop. 545 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:32.120 Andrew Dunkley: Already got the coffee shop. 546 00:23:32.120 --> 00:23:32.760 Professor Fred Watson: Okay. 547 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:34.640 Andrew Dunkley: They're going to do a bigger coffee shop. 548 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:36.320 That's, that's really what this storey is 549 00:23:36.320 --> 00:23:36.600 about. 550 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:39.920 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. And the great thing from my point of 551 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:42.880 view is that uh, in, uh, let 552 00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:45.519 me see, in Just over three weeks. I'll be 553 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.400 there. Wow. Uh, so, yeah, so I 554 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:48.880 love, I 555 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:50.320 Andrew Dunkley: love the line in this storey on 556 00:23:50.320 --> 00:23:52.960 theuniversetoday.com. uh, see you later. 557 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:55.920 Accelerator. Yes, I 558 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:56.920 think that's very clever. 559 00:23:57.890 --> 00:23:58.570 Professor Fred Watson: It's a nice way to. 560 00:23:58.570 --> 00:23:59.570 Andrew Dunkley: I wish I'd thought of it. 561 00:23:59.730 --> 00:24:02.530 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I do too. Um, yeah, actually, 562 00:24:02.530 --> 00:24:04.610 you've always got to be careful, especially 563 00:24:04.610 --> 00:24:06.810 when you write about this machine, because 564 00:24:06.810 --> 00:24:08.810 Marnie, in one of our earlier tours, when we 565 00:24:08.810 --> 00:24:10.370 visited the Large Hadron Collider, 566 00:24:11.650 --> 00:24:13.970 had a spelling mistake in the word 567 00:24:13.970 --> 00:24:16.970 hadron, uh, which you probably don't need to 568 00:24:16.970 --> 00:24:19.250 think too hard about to work out what it was. 569 00:24:19.250 --> 00:24:21.650 But somebody had to point it out. 570 00:24:22.130 --> 00:24:23.810 Is that what really meant 571 00:24:26.930 --> 00:24:28.130 Andrew Dunkley: Transpose two letters? 572 00:24:28.210 --> 00:24:30.210 Professor Fred Watson: Yes. You transposed two letters. 573 00:24:30.210 --> 00:24:30.770 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. 574 00:24:32.150 --> 00:24:34.890 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, it would have got some laughs. I think it 575 00:24:34.890 --> 00:24:37.730 did. Yes, I think it did. I'm sure it's 576 00:24:37.730 --> 00:24:39.930 happened before, but, um, Marnie never made 577 00:24:39.930 --> 00:24:41.610 that mistake again. But, yes, we're going 578 00:24:41.610 --> 00:24:43.730 again. And the fact that it switched off 579 00:24:44.210 --> 00:24:47.050 actually makes us hope that we might, uh, 580 00:24:47.050 --> 00:24:49.410 once again get a trip down into, 581 00:24:49.850 --> 00:24:52.690 uh, the tunnel where the accelerator is, 582 00:24:52.690 --> 00:24:55.490 that 27 kilometre long circle of 583 00:24:55.490 --> 00:24:58.350 pipe work, uh, where the subatomic particles 584 00:24:58.350 --> 00:25:00.950 are accelerated, but also perhaps into one of 585 00:25:00.950 --> 00:25:03.870 the experimental, uh, caverns. 586 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.660 Um, the last one we were at was the compact, 587 00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:09.550 uh, Muon Solenoid. This is 588 00:25:09.950 --> 00:25:12.590 this machine that's as big as a small factory 589 00:25:12.910 --> 00:25:15.150 in a giant chamber underground. And it's 590 00:25:15.150 --> 00:25:17.430 called the Compact Muon Solenoid. I love 591 00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:20.350 that. Uh, it's definitely not compact 592 00:25:20.350 --> 00:25:22.910 by our, uh, standards, but it was a fantastic 593 00:25:22.910 --> 00:25:25.030 thing to see. We're hoping we might see that 594 00:25:25.030 --> 00:25:27.670 again, but we'll see. Um, so, yeah, we're 595 00:25:27.670 --> 00:25:29.050 nothing to do with the large. Hunt and 596 00:25:29.050 --> 00:25:32.020 Collider were just, um, cheerleaders, uh, 597 00:25:32.020 --> 00:25:34.610 to bring people to cheer it on. Because one 598 00:25:34.610 --> 00:25:37.290 day we hope this machine might tell us what 599 00:25:37.290 --> 00:25:39.730 dark matter is. And that's actually what this 600 00:25:39.730 --> 00:25:42.600 upgrade's about. Uh, so what's happening? Uh, 601 00:25:42.600 --> 00:25:44.850 it's switched off at the moment. I, uh, think 602 00:25:44.850 --> 00:25:47.850 it is now switched off. Uh, see you later. 603 00:25:47.850 --> 00:25:50.750 Accelerator. It's, um, uh, 604 00:25:50.750 --> 00:25:53.130 due to reopen in 2030, 605 00:25:53.530 --> 00:25:56.450 which will be a new version. It's called the 606 00:25:56.450 --> 00:25:59.290 High Luminosity LHC Large 607 00:25:59.290 --> 00:26:02.010 Hadron Collider. And it's got 10 times 608 00:26:02.650 --> 00:26:05.610 the luminosity of the original machine. 609 00:26:06.310 --> 00:26:09.290 Um, and I think by luminosity, 610 00:26:09.370 --> 00:26:12.250 what particle physicists mean is the 611 00:26:12.250 --> 00:26:15.250 number of particles that you can, uh, sort 612 00:26:15.250 --> 00:26:17.350 of charge around, uh, 613 00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:20.090 the circuit, the 27 614 00:26:20.410 --> 00:26:23.290 kilometre, uh, ring that the 615 00:26:23.290 --> 00:26:25.130 particles charge around, 616 00:26:26.190 --> 00:26:28.770 uh, being accelerated and focused by 617 00:26:28.770 --> 00:26:30.770 superconducting magnets. And I think that's 618 00:26:30.770 --> 00:26:33.070 what's actually being, you know, I think 619 00:26:33.070 --> 00:26:35.350 that's what's being, uh, upgraded. 620 00:26:36.050 --> 00:26:38.750 Um, so I don't think the speed will be 621 00:26:38.750 --> 00:26:41.670 faster. Uh, and if I remember rightly, these 622 00:26:41.830 --> 00:26:43.190 protons are accelerated to 623 00:26:43.190 --> 00:26:46.150 99.99998% of 624 00:26:46.150 --> 00:26:47.630 the speed of light. I think that's the 625 00:26:47.630 --> 00:26:50.390 accurate thing. Uh, so it'll be 626 00:26:50.390 --> 00:26:52.390 probably the same speed but many, many more 627 00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:55.030 particles. And that gives you a much better, 628 00:26:56.090 --> 00:26:58.510 uh, chance of seeing some of the things that 629 00:26:58.510 --> 00:27:01.080 we've missed. We've missed by, uh, 630 00:27:01.150 --> 00:27:04.030 the current version of the lhc, which of 631 00:27:04.030 --> 00:27:06.750 course M is a, ah, triumph 632 00:27:06.750 --> 00:27:09.150 already. And in fact, uh, on the day we're 633 00:27:09.150 --> 00:27:11.790 recording, um, today, 2nd of July, 634 00:27:12.030 --> 00:27:14.870 yesterday was the 12th, sorry, 635 00:27:14.870 --> 00:27:17.670 the 14th anniversary of the discovery of the 636 00:27:17.670 --> 00:27:20.550 Higgs boson, which was done at the Large 637 00:27:20.550 --> 00:27:22.510 Hadron Collider. Wow. So a bit of an 638 00:27:22.510 --> 00:27:23.310 anniversary there. 639 00:27:23.310 --> 00:27:24.710 Andrew Dunkley: That's gone fast, hasn't it? 640 00:27:24.710 --> 00:27:27.350 Professor Fred Watson: Hasn't it gone fast? Yeah, and gosh, I think 641 00:27:27.350 --> 00:27:28.950 we've been talking about it that long as 642 00:27:28.950 --> 00:27:31.770 well, literally and figuratively. Yeah, 643 00:27:32.250 --> 00:27:35.050 that's right, that's right. So, 644 00:27:35.210 --> 00:27:37.930 and of course what we're, and this 645 00:27:38.090 --> 00:27:40.250 ties into our previous storey, what we're all 646 00:27:40.250 --> 00:27:43.210 hoping, uh, for is 647 00:27:43.610 --> 00:27:46.170 that the, uh, new 648 00:27:46.170 --> 00:27:48.810 analysis which will result from 649 00:27:49.050 --> 00:27:51.370 the high luminosity lhc, 650 00:27:52.020 --> 00:27:54.490 uh, will give us insights into everything, 651 00:27:54.490 --> 00:27:56.890 but perhaps in particular the Higgs boson, 652 00:27:57.930 --> 00:28:00.090 and maybe will point the way, 653 00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:03.350 uh, as the Conversation piece says, uh, will 654 00:28:03.350 --> 00:28:05.390 point the way to physics beyond the Standard 655 00:28:05.390 --> 00:28:07.870 model, perhaps including evidence for 656 00:28:07.870 --> 00:28:10.630 supersymmetry or the existence of exotic 657 00:28:10.630 --> 00:28:13.270 dark matter particles. And of course, along 658 00:28:13.270 --> 00:28:15.190 the way we hope they'll solve the Hubble 659 00:28:15.190 --> 00:28:16.230 Tension as well. 660 00:28:16.470 --> 00:28:19.110 Andrew Dunkley: Well, yes, let's hope so. Yeah, 661 00:28:19.190 --> 00:28:22.030 yeah, it's um. So how long does this work 662 00:28:22.030 --> 00:28:24.910 take, you reckon? I think it takes quite some 663 00:28:24.910 --> 00:28:25.590 time, yeah. 664 00:28:25.590 --> 00:28:27.870 Professor Fred Watson: Most of the time between now and 2030 when it 665 00:28:27.870 --> 00:28:30.790 comes back on. So, yeah, I mean 666 00:28:30.790 --> 00:28:33.590 it sounds as though, uh, it 667 00:28:33.590 --> 00:28:36.040 is, are going to involve 668 00:28:36.040 --> 00:28:38.680 replacing all the superconducting magnets all 669 00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:41.120 the way around the 27 kilometre ring 670 00:28:42.080 --> 00:28:44.480 and that. Yeah, that's quite a thing. 671 00:28:44.560 --> 00:28:46.240 Andrew Dunkley: The good news is, if you want a 672 00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.440 superconducting magnet, there'll be some for 673 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:49.680 sale on the side of the road 674 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.000 in a few years time, probably. 675 00:28:56.320 --> 00:28:59.160 Professor Fred Watson: Um, I beg your pardon, I quoted, uh, it as 676 00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:00.720 being from the Conversation, the article I 677 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.200 was reading from, but it's actually Universe 678 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:02.480 Today. 679 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:04.520 Andrew Dunkley: Universe Today by Alan Boyle. 680 00:29:05.790 --> 00:29:06.110 Professor Fred Watson: Very good. 681 00:29:06.110 --> 00:29:08.590 Andrew Dunkley: All right, we'll watch with interest and 682 00:29:08.590 --> 00:29:11.070 hopefully an upgraded Cafe as well, which 683 00:29:11.070 --> 00:29:13.550 will, um, you know, bring the tourists in big 684 00:29:13.550 --> 00:29:14.430 time, for sure. 685 00:29:15.950 --> 00:29:17.990 I think that brings us to the end of the 686 00:29:17.990 --> 00:29:19.470 show, Fred Watson. Thank you so much. 687 00:29:19.870 --> 00:29:22.030 Professor Fred Watson: Ah, they go so quickly, don't they? 688 00:29:22.030 --> 00:29:24.270 Andrew Dunkley: They don't. They do. They do, yes. 689 00:29:25.090 --> 00:29:27.390 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, but I'll see you next time, I hope. 690 00:29:27.550 --> 00:29:28.510 Andrew Dunkley: I hope so, too. 691 00:29:28.530 --> 00:29:28.850 Professor Fred Watson: Huh? 692 00:29:28.850 --> 00:29:30.350 Andrew Dunkley: Couldn't do this without you, Fred Watson. 693 00:29:31.550 --> 00:29:33.070 Professor Fred Watson: I don't think I could do it without you. 694 00:29:34.090 --> 00:29:35.210 Andrew Dunkley: At least you'd be able to talk about 695 00:29:35.210 --> 00:29:36.590 something. I'd sit here and go, um. 696 00:29:37.930 --> 00:29:38.610 Professor Fred Watson: No, you wouldn't. 697 00:29:38.610 --> 00:29:40.410 Professor Fred Watson: No, no, you wouldn't. No, you can talk. 698 00:29:40.890 --> 00:29:42.890 Andrew Dunkley: I can talk gibberish. I can do that a lot. 699 00:29:43.290 --> 00:29:44.890 Professor Fred Watson: The hind leg off a donkey. 700 00:29:44.890 --> 00:29:46.490 Andrew Dunkley: That's the time I could do that. 701 00:29:46.650 --> 00:29:47.050 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. 702 00:29:47.050 --> 00:29:49.050 Andrew Dunkley: I could talk the leg off an iron pot. That's 703 00:29:49.050 --> 00:29:49.690 another one. 704 00:29:50.250 --> 00:29:51.210 Professor Fred Watson: I like that. 705 00:29:51.290 --> 00:29:53.690 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. All right. Thanks, Fred Watson. We'll 706 00:29:53.690 --> 00:29:54.170 see you soon. 707 00:29:54.410 --> 00:29:55.850 Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great. Thanks, Andrew. 708 00:29:56.250 --> 00:29:57.890 Andrew Dunkley: Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at 709 00:29:57.890 --> 00:29:59.330 large. Don't forget to visit our website 710 00:29:59.330 --> 00:30:02.010 between episodes. You can do that and, uh, 711 00:30:02.010 --> 00:30:04.490 maybe if you've got time, wherever you listen 712 00:30:04.490 --> 00:30:07.070 to us, leave review. Reviews are very helpful 713 00:30:07.070 --> 00:30:09.950 because they tell people what you think 714 00:30:09.950 --> 00:30:12.470 of us and that might inspire them to listen. 715 00:30:12.870 --> 00:30:15.730 It might not, depending on what you say. But, 716 00:30:15.730 --> 00:30:18.030 uh, yeah, reviews are very, very good. If you 717 00:30:18.030 --> 00:30:19.950 can, uh, spend a couple of minutes doing that 718 00:30:19.950 --> 00:30:22.390 from wherever you listen to us. 719 00:30:22.570 --> 00:30:24.150 Um, YouTube, 720 00:30:25.490 --> 00:30:28.270 um, Apple Podcasts, Spreaker. There's a. 721 00:30:28.270 --> 00:30:30.830 There's a whole bunch that we're on. And 722 00:30:30.830 --> 00:30:33.030 thanks to Huw in the studio, who couldn't be 723 00:30:33.030 --> 00:30:35.110 with us today because he's dealing with 724 00:30:35.980 --> 00:30:38.740 a dark matter. And from me, Andrew Dunkley. 725 00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:39.420 Professor Fred Watson: Thanks for your company. 726 00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:41.860 Andrew Dunkley: We'll see you in the next episode of Space 727 00:30:41.860 --> 00:30:42.340 Nuts. 728 00:30:42.340 --> 00:30:42.940 Professor Fred Watson: Bye. Bye. 729 00:30:44.060 --> 00:30:46.300 Andrew Dunkley: You've been listening to the Space Nuts 730 00:30:46.300 --> 00:30:49.260 podcast, available at 731 00:30:49.260 --> 00:30:51.180 Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 732 00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:54.180 iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast 733 00:30:54.180 --> 00:30:55.900 player. You can also stream on 734 00:30:55.900 --> 00:30:57.580 demand@bytes.um.com. 735 00:30:57.900 --> 00:30:59.980 Professor Fred Watson: this has been another quality podcast 736 00:30:59.980 --> 00:31:02.140 production from bytes.um com.